The Chatterbox, Random Music Discussion

In other news, I think I've found a videogame company that still produces epically melodic and emotive soundtracks like those of yesteryear, making full use of — yet without being distracted by — the fancy instrumentation that soundtrack composers have access to nowadays. It's Nihon Falcom, with their jdk sound team.

edited 21st Oct '14 11:57:29 AM by GlennMagusHarvey

Define "melodic and emotive", because if that means "not generic orchestra" then where the hell have you been?

I really don't see how that website refutes any of my claims...

A content creator who would pettily prevent somebody who doesn't have the money to buy their content from experiencing it is not one who deserves your money. Period.

I've already said this, but if a musician wants a normal job of checks and balances, then they can do that instead of doing what most would consider a 'dream job.'

As a friend of mine (and "petty content creator") recently said, "the internet has created the first generation that prefers to stick it to the starving artist and pay the man". I think I have a prime example right here.

Good day, sir. The only fact that we're on tvtropes and that this is a generally friendly forum prevents me from using more flowery language, although I've considered it.

Okay, I agree with you that people should pay artists if they can, and I most always pay lesser-known artists I like in order to support them, but the fact that we see many artists wanting to prevent people who wouldn't have bought their music anyway from downloading it and experiencing it, is very petty in my opinion. Many artists (and record execs) have a tendency to think that every illegal digital download represents a lost sale, but they really represent people who wouldn't have turned it off had they heard it on the radio.

As you say, this is a friendly forum, so if you don't want to answer this, then I'm not going to go nuts or anything, but do you defend the non-pettiness of artists to stop digital downloaders who would never have bought the music, (whether piracy was available or not) from experiencing it?

edited 22nd Oct '14 2:43:35 AM by CardsOfWar

The problem isn't really to stop people from listening to the music, actually, it's the means of listening that are a problem. For example, I find it incredibly weird when people illegally download something that's available on complete listen either through a bandcamp or soundcloud stream for example (or any number of legal streaming websites). I mean I understand the convenience of having an album on my iPod like any other person (are iPods still a thing now ?) but when something is available for streaming direct from the artist, I don't have to download it to form my own opinion and to know whenever I want to buy it or not.

To you the fact that people may not want to be heard might be crazy, but I have a lot of friends who put out only limited cd editions and have to delay the digital copies from hitting stores (usually bandcamp) only so that the cd copies would actually sell even though they're basically limited to a couple hundred of copies (sometimes even less) and people are actually complaining that there are too few of them, sometimes they still don't even sell and that's usually because either the digital has leaked out or someone who got the cd has ripped it. Thus, smaller artists have (and I do mean have) to make do with stupid cloak and dagger tactics (withholding digital from day one release, or even foregoing having a digital release at all in some cases) that even they don't like in an attempt to survive.

Again, piracy does not really hurt the big players, as much as they want you to think. Big record labels have tools to fight it, and most of all they have the money to fight it. Big labels usually hire firms that were created especially to issue out DMCA takedown notices to sharing websites (rapidshare, mediafire and the like) to take down content, and that usually works pretty well, even if not completely eradicating every illegal digital copy it usually makes it hard enough for people who want to hear it to just go with iTunes because it's easier. These are the artists that I don't really pity because they have the tools, and they usually don't have any trouble with their content being pirated, as much as the big record companies would like you to think otherwise. They still sell, they sell less, but they still sell.

But that isn't true for anybody else. Issuing takedown notices takes precious time, and unless you either have lawyers or a specific company or brand name backing you up, most of the time it's not going to work because they want you to actually prove that you are the holder of the rights of the content you want to flag down. They are actively making life harder for any artists who don't have enough money or the means to take them on their bullshit, because consider this : they want you to provide that information for every damn file separately. And usually, they also have conditions, depending on the website. And as you probably know, when a guy uploads a release, they usually upload it to at least three to four different sharing websites with different policies. And while some may be cooperative (spoiler alert : 9 out of 10 aren't), the mere fact that you have to give out your personal information to a website based in Russia or Whereveristan isn't really something that you like to do on a daily basis. Even taking out this fact, the process is still extremely long and tedious and won't work half the time because they will not believe your credentials (trust me I HAVE BEEN THERE).

But the funniest part is all of this doesn't matter, because even if you've successfully eradicated every copy you could find of your work online, the damage is done, the people who wanted to have the release on mp3 already have, and you're stuck with whatever silly amount of copies you've made in the hopes of selling them. And this happens all the damn time. Even if someone is interested in getting it eventually they can always ask for a reupload on the umpteenth amounts of forums dedicated to sharing music that exist.

The thing is, I understand where you're coming from, but the fact is if people have access to the mp3, 95% of the time, they will simply not buy it. And why would they, they have it right ? But the fact is that if that kind of thing goes on as it's been going on for a few years now, it will eventually, as someone more intelligent than me has already quite eloquently put, suck all creative content out of the world. If that sounds like we're merely being alarmist here, crying wolf when there's nothing to worry about, then I really don't know what to say to you.

Because, whichever way you look at it, and even if that doesn't sound right to you, content needs money to be made. If artists don't get paid and never get paid they will eventually stop making music and just get day jobs like you suggested. And then we will really be in trouble.

edited 22nd Oct '14 3:30:02 AM by Akalabth

Re "melodic and emotive"

It's a little hard to define. But this is mainly in response to the Extra Credits video on video game soundtracks. This is probably important to establish context for my comment. I forgot the term they used so I just slapped together "emotive and melodic" off the top of my head.

I'll give a few more examples:

more "melodic and emotive":

• Ys Origin - Scarlet Tempest - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPW_M48Welk
• Scurge: Hive - Deadscape - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnFPMTKSjMk
• Black Sigil - Exiled from Exile - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMc-pr4PjZg
• Cave Story - Running Hell - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtxp70tVHyM

less so:

• Metroid Prime - Chozo Ruins - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXS3XZwPaEk
• Portal - Self-Esteem Fund - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R88vJ_xHmM0
• eXceed 3rd - Feast of Frenzy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn8Dr-roOr8
• Stealth Bastard - Ripstar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICcJzBzCUk

Perhaps a feature that I hadn't mentioned in that description is harmonic variety. I do tend to prefer musical phrases that have longer harmonic structures, rather than one harmony throughout a piece or a short repeated structures. Though this preference isn't set in stone.

Note that even for the second list, those all come from soundtracks I like, too. And they have their place, too! For an example of a soundtrack that has a bit too much "emotive and melodic" music, just look to a Touhou game.

edited 22nd Oct '14 11:51:15 AM by GlennMagusHarvey

So what you're saying is, soundtracks with more melodies that come together rather than atmosphere?

Does anyone here think that, regardless of the games' actual quality, Modern Warfare series have some great music?

I especially love the soundtracks from Modern Warfare 2. Lorne Balfe did some magnificent job (Hans Zimmer only composed the title theme).

I wouldn't know, I've not heard it.

Kind of. Though it's not just soundtracks with melodies that give character.

I was a bit hesitant to post some of examples in that second list — for example, the Stealth Bastard example — because, despite their lack of prominent melody, they're actually effective at giving character to the game. Just that having a prominent melody makes it just that much more memorable and defining to the game.

But as for ambience, such as that Portal example — yeah. There are places where it's appropriate, but in general, I'm not a big fan of the idea of soundtrack as being some sort of background thing that merely serves the atmosphere.

Rather than being defined by the atmosphere, I think the music should generally itself help to define the atmosphere.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

edited 22nd Oct '14 1:18:54 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

It does the job of making vigorous, uplifting, pulse-pounding film score stuff but beyond that it loses a lot of the nuance and subtlety I generally like in orchestral music.

Incidentally, that video cites the Halo theme as quite iconic, yet I've listened to it a few times and I don't find it all that iconic. it feels more atmospheric than iconic.

Admittedly, I have not played the actual game myself, so maybe it works better with context.

edited 22nd Oct '14 7:06:29 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

Here are some Modern Warfare 2 soundtracks I like:

• Intro
• Snowmobile Escape
• No Russian
• Favela Combat
• Rangers Victory
• Boat Ride
• Final Fight
• Ending Credit

I think they are at least decent.

x9

It may surprise you, but some people don’t have quite as much money as you, and still want the convenience of a physical copy. I’d much rather see people who wouldn’t normally be able to afford much music have a wide variety of it at their fingertips than the situation you seem to want.

Yes, small artists have a bit of a struggle. Even when internet piracy didn’t exist, small artists had a bit of a struggle. Also, with most really small artists, it can be nearly impossible to find a torrent of their music. Recently, I purchased a physical copy of something by black metal band Incursus, and I figured while I was waiting for it to arrive, I would get a torrent. (I live in Australia, so it was going to take a couple of weeks at the very least) I looked pretty extensively, and I couldn’t find a torrent (or a “results removed in compliance with the DMCA” sign) anywhere. Small artists struggle because nobody knows about them, not because of the occasional person torrenting their stuff, and that will always be the case, whether or not internet piracy is prevalent or not.

Issuing takedown notices is exactly the sort of pettiness I‘m talking about. Money should never be the reason for a musician to be playing, and my learning of a musician acting in such an entitled manner about what they have created, will always make me less inclined to support that musician. At what point is it that a musician stops ‘playing music,’ and starts ‘working as a musician?’ Because I sure know there are plenty of people who play music that don’t expect to be able to live off it. Playing music is quite obviously more fun than a normal job, so what’s fundamentally wrong with musicians getting a little less pay?

This seems to be the core premise of your post, and it is fundamentally flawed. There are plenty of musicians perfectly willing to give away [their music completely free to anybody that wants it. I didn’t have to do any out-of the way searching to find all the bands I linked then, and my knowledge of music other than metal is quite entry level. There are plenty of musicians out there willing to play for free. Even if a large number of musicians don’t play music because of piracy, the claim that “all creative content will be sucked out of the world” is very apocalyptic.

I think we are both in agreement that musicians need money to survive, just like everybody else. I think that for a musician, just like anyone else, government welfare (or even no government welfare) plus the occasional person who does want to support them, and the occasional paycheck from a tour/merch sale is easily enough to survive on. You seem to think that musicians need some amount of extra money to regular people. All of this argument is largely moot anyway, as internet piracy is clearly here to stay. Only time will tell what its consequences are.

Sorry for such a late response, and again, sorry if this post is poorly written/typo-laden.

edited 26th Oct '14 4:57:11 AM by CardsOfWar

6666 songs in my library!◊ A personal milestone.

Slayer and ABBA? Awesome!

Ah, thanks for them.

They are pretty decent. Though incidentally they also kinda illustrate the problem I was highlighting — while I might remember them if I listen to them a few more times, they kinda take a back seat to what I'm doing even as I'm not playing the game. I think the Intro theme would be most iconic, but the rest just sound like rhythmic ambience to accompany the action.

Is this appropriate or not? Is there a way to tell outside existing biases/expectations about what soundtracks should be like? Not really sure.

I think a soundtrack can be good as a soundtrack if it fits and supports the scenes and the mood without necessarily being good piece of music, something that you'd listen outside of the game.

I think you're looking for the ones that would stand out and be worth listenable even outside the game.

edited 27th Oct '14 1:16:31 AM by Xeroop

x5 I got nothing man. I basically disagree with every one of your "arguments" up there and I don't have the time nor the patience nor do I want to spend another 1000+ word post trying to get my point across (on the goddamn internet of all places).

I find it funny that you seem to think I have more money than you. Just because basically all my money goes into records, doesn't mean that I have a lot of it.

"A bit of a struggle" is the understatement of the century. But again the notion of someone wanting to actually earn a living making music seems to be so alien to you I don't even know why we're even having this conversation in the first place. That's also why your argument of artists offering their music for free is completely unrelated to the issue at hand. The fact that some artists offer their music for free means that they're getting money from somewhere else, period. That music doesn't magically appear on their website overnight. Bringing this up while we're talking about artists wanting to make a living off of their work is so utterly irrelevant it makes my brain melt.

If a musician wanting to make money off his craft is an "entitled" thing to you then I am afraid you don't know what fucking entitlement means. Living beyond your means pirating music you don't own, and then blaming musicians for being lazy buggers sitting in their ass waiting for someone to pay for something they created, saying that the only laws in place against this kind of behavior (copyright laws, as flawed as they may be, are still useful) are stupid and then proceeding to denounce DMCA, at the moment the only mean of action artists have to defend their content as the proof of those artists' entitlement ... that's pretty much the textbook definition of being an entitled prick.

Again, I disagree with almost all of your points, and I don't want to spend another massive post debating it, I just want to point something out: The only reason I mentioned the artists willing to work for free is as a refutal of the claim that piracy will suck all creative content out of the world.

I used to be certain that the Capitol version of Rubber Soul was better than the original. But now I'm not so sure anymore. I've Just Seen A Face and It's Only Love are definitely better than Drive My Car and What Goes On, but the loss of Nowhere Man and If I Needed Someone really hurts the Capitol version.

I did what should have been done a long, long time ago, and made a page for David Byrne's solo career. (Previously, David Byrne was just a redirect to Talking Heads.) What I have on there right now is just scratching the surface—I think I need to re-listen to all his albums I have and take notes.

-blinks-

Florence Welch and Tori Amos were in Here Lies Love?

The first album. I don't know about the off-Broadway show. Florence even sang the title track.