Rename: Moriarty Effect

Character/work name plus meaningless descriptor (Effect|Syndrome|Plot) is exactly as effective/ineffective a trope title as the character/work name by itself. It's Word Cruft.

edited 5th Oct '10 11:47:02 AM by Fighteer

I'm fairly neutral on this one. Almost all of the wicks are correct, but it's a Character Named Trope that doesn't fulfill the usual criteria for keeping one.

We don't need to fulfill criteria for keeping it.

We need to fulfill criteria for renaming it, and we have none.

Default position is always keep, people. Well established rule here.

Actually yeah, it fits one of the Trope Renaming Guidelines:

Character-Name Titles: No character is so iconic that everyone will instantly recognize what it means to be, for example, 'The John Smith'. For people who aren't familiar with the character, all characters might as well be named John Smith. In addition, most characters are not known for a single aspect; for example, even assuming you know who Mario is, a trope called The Mario could mean a well-rounded character, a plumber with a mustache, or the older brother who overshadows his younger sibling.

As the example says, not everyone knows who Moriarty is. And even amongst those that know him, few people know he only appeared twice in the books. And again, Moriarty is famous for a lot of things. Being a criminal mastermind. Being responsible for Holmes' temporary death. Lots of things.

^ Much as I want to agree, this is the second time I've had to nitpick the wording of that page. Look carefully.

"If a title is not working, it may be suffering from one or more of the following problems. These are guesses about why the title is not working, not rules that have to be followed"

Emphasis mine.

What twilight said.

The lists of things that could be wrong with a name are all circumstantial evidence: if something else is wrong with the name, something on those lists probably caused it.

But they're not evidence that something with those types of names is broken all by themselves. If a name looks broken but isn't, it isn't. There's no "but it really really looks like it should be broken!"

edited 5th Oct '10 3:01:33 PM by BlackHumor

Ignore me

edited 5th Oct '10 3:01:14 PM by Yamikuronue

It's been around for ages and has just 15 genuine wicks (the rest of its hits are indexes and "related to" mentions). That's pretty damned anemic, especially since its internal example list is much healthier.

^ Agreed. and it's not like it's that rare a trope either. "Villain starts off as minor then becomes the major antagonist."

Yeah. For starters, there should be tons of hits from superhero comics, where many of today's archvillains were created as a bad-guy-of-the-month and then turned out to be lightning in a bottle.

edited 5th Oct '10 3:24:08 PM by Shale

Ascended Villian? its a close counterpart to Ascended Extra.

edited 5th Oct '10 3:30:33 PM by Raso

Ascended Villain works for me.

Agree on a rename because while it is being used correctly, the name itself just doesn't accurately describe the trope.

I like Ascended Villain more than Breakout Villain because based on the examples it seems to be much more about subsequent adaptations.

I've read a (small) number of Sherlock Holmes stories and I don't recall this guy...

That's kind of the point: he almost never shows up in canon, but he's the Holmes villain.

I prefer Breakout Villain over Ascended Villain because there are too many villains that ascend to godhood, usually just before they are taken down.

^^ Agreed, and that's probably where the YKTTW got tripped up, as he was clearly introduced both as the ultimate criminal and The Chessmaster behind the scenes, controlling the London criminal element for his own purposes. It should also be noted that Moriarty was actually the ultimate villain in the original publication, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, so it is entirely possibly that Doyle either had plans for him going forward or considered the possibility that Adventures would be the end of his work.

Moriarty's introduction from The Adventure of the Final Problem:

"Aye, there's the genius and the wonder of the thing!" [Holmes] cried. "The man pervades London, and no one has heard of him. That's what put him on a pinnacle in the records of crime. I tell you, Watson, in all seriousness, that if I could beat that man, if I could free society of him, I should feel that my own career had reached its summit, and I should be prepared to turn to some more placid line in life ... For years past I have continually been conscious of some power behind the malefactor, some deep organizing power which for ever stands in the way of the law, and throws its shield over the wrong-doer. Again and again in cases of the most varying sorts - forgery cases, robberies, murders - I have felt the presence of this force, and I have deduced its action in many of those undiscovered crimes in which I have not been personally consulted. For years I have endeavoured to break through the veil which shrouded it, and at last the time came when I seized my thread and followed it, until it led me, after a thousand cunning windings, to ex-Professor Moriarty of mathematical celebrity.

edited 6th Oct '10 6:03:44 AM by Fnor

i'm against a rename, but if we're going to rename either way (and shouldn't we have a single prop crowner for that?) i would prefer Breakout Villain. it's a nice counterpart to Breakout Character. and like camacan said, Ascended Villain could probably create some confusion with A God Am I.

of course, then i would probably propose a split within Breakout Villain as i explained in my previous post, but let's leave that for later...

Crowner made and hooked. If someone wants to fill in additional pros and cons, feel free, but please be concise.

edited 6th Oct '10 11:08:12 AM by Fighteer

Five days in, crowner is sitting at a healthy +10. We've got Breakout Villain, Ascended Villain...what other options?

Swapped to Alt Titles crowner. Gentlemen, add your options.

It looks like the alt-names crowner is settling down: Breakout Villain is leading over Ascended Villain 9 to -1.

Do we still do Three Day Clocks?

Just do it.

Done.

Locking, then