Harry Potter

It seems he does know that calling someone a mudblood is wrong. He apologized after all.

There's also this.

And now Snape stood again in the headmaster’s study as Phineas Nigellus came hurrying into his portrait.

“Headmaster! They are camping in the Forest of Dean! The Mudblood – ”

“Do not use that word!”

“ – the Granger girl, then, mentioned the place as she opened her bag and I heard her!”

He stops Nigellus Black from calling Hermione mudblood.

edited 4th Oct '15 12:49:30 AM by 940131

"Draco's pretty damn anti-Muggle. It's like...one of his defining traits."

But is clear he dosent understand them or anything like that, is a family thing more at the end, he dosent have what it need to be a death eater.

Regulus since to be more "glory for blacks" than other stuff while Snape since to care more about Dark magic and showing strong for lily that racist against muggleborn

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

That scene took place near the end of his life. I was referring to his mindset as a teenager and young adult.

It's...difficult to talk about Regulus in that regard, considering we don't know all that much about him. In any case, "Black family glory" has always pretty involved the general sentiment of "fuck Muggles".

You're right that Draco didn't have what it took to be a Death Eater, but that doesn't change the fact that until then, he was perfectly willing to be a prejudiced little dickweed about it all. His environment played a role in his development, just like it does with everyone else, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility.

Look, my point is, hatred of Muggles is a pretty inescapable part of the Death Eater manifesto. James quite obviously had a problem with that hatred, while Draco, Regulus and Snape obviously don't. With this in mind, why would James ever want to join the Death Eaters?

edited 4th Oct '15 1:11:17 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

Not only is Snape an adult, he's an authority figure, a disciplinarian. Part of his job is to protect the students of Hogwarts from bullying by keeping them in line. Instead he uses his authority to bully some of them himself and enable any bullying that comes from the ones he doesn't target. And across his sixteen-year career at Hogwarts he's able to do it to more people than the Marauders ever could.

A kitchen knife can be used to kill someone as dead as any WMD. That doesn't mean that WMDs aren't a hell of a fuck lot more sketchy than kitchen knives.

But yes, Rowling's vague worldbuilding on the subject of what makes an Art Dark is frustrating.

Harry also mended his bridges with Dudley, who physically assaulted him for fun. If we want to rank abuses, I'd say getting your buddies to go and beat up a guy with you is worse than flipping him upside down. That Harry forgives Snape and respects his positive qualities does not erase Snape's abuses.

Also, "tough?" Bullshit. Snape was an abusive teacher, call a spade a fucking spade. If he was just tough he wouldn't punish Hermione for giving him the right answer. If he was just tough he wouldn't show blatant favoritism towards the students from his house.* If he were just tough he has no business being the one thing that frightened Neville more than anything else. Including, I can't help notice, any of the people who took his parents from him.

You want a tough teacher, look at McGonagall. Snape's a petty tyrant and one of the great strikes against Dumbledore is that he didn't stop that shit for a decade and a half.

*Note parallels with the Dursleys and the difference between their treatment of their son and their nephew.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:05:27 AM by rikalous

The Marauders tried to murder Snape. You can say James wasn't in on it - which we don't know for certain - but after that I have no problem understanding Snape's mistrust and lack of forgiveness for the close friends of his would-be killer.

I wouldn't refer to them as a collective in this regard - Lupin was obviously not in on it, and there's no evidence that Peter knew either. Sirius is the only one we know for sure was involved, and even then I'm not entirely sure if he was actually trying to get Snape killed. Of course, it was an incredibly stupid and dickish thing to do, and I don't blame Snape for hating Sirius over it.

That doesn't excuse everything he did afterwards.

Oh God! Natural light!

"my point is, hatred of Muggles is a pretty inescapable part of the Death Eater manifesto"

Maybe but there are more than that, just like being a nazi is more thant "let kill jew!" (which unfortunaly maybe people flanderized the nazis)

Many death eater have diferent reasons: Draco is one because his daddy is one and that backfire because he dosent have what it need, Bellatrix is less a Death eater and more of a Voldy extreme fangirl who would follow him whatever he said, Snape is more by strengt and Dark magic.

So even without the racist creed they could be other reason, so saying.

Also let not create a scale of dickness, James was one by being abusing Jerk jock and sadly truth is that he pretty much get away with it(as far we know) yeah he grew up it but is kind of easier to do it.

Sirius was idioc douchebag, he complain about Regulus follow his familiy but pretty much he follow James a lacky in that time, good thing he also grew out it even to the point of calling himself, that I can respect.

And Snape...he is a huge damn case, I can understand his bitterness but is easy to said that devored him complely

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

He's spoilt rich, has older parents, drives a Mercedes and is only an outsider because he's new at school, but otherwise he's closer to James and Sirius than anyone else. The only true outsider in that movie is that kid Plato.

How many do you know who can also be animagi and create something like the Marauder's Map, or you know have Mc Gonagall call you "exceptionally bright", so clearly that stereotype does not apply. The books don't support it at all, James and Sirius were "the height of cool" loved by Dumbledore, Mc,Gonagall and everyone. It's not as simple as that usual "gimme your lunch money" thing you are making out. The point of that scene isn't that James and Sirius are bad guys, it's that they are good guys who did bad things sometimes. That's the message.

Fighting back is not the same as using Sectumsempra. By your logic, school shooters who got bullied are justified in their response too. The point isn't that Snape wasn't bullied, he was bullied yes. But the point is that the scene doesn't imply that Snape is a simple uncomplicated victim that you can naively identify with and ignore all the other issues going on.

Did Snape after that incident, cut off ties from other Death Eaters and focused his life on doing something meaningful? No he did not. He joined the Wizard Hitler after explicitly being told by Lily that it was terrible. So to him it was Lily herself that mattered not what she said or believed. Typical entitled Nice Guy behavior, I only want the hot girl as a prize but God forbid if she has opinions or choices of her own.

Years and years later, after being extensively deprogrammed by Dumbledore, his unpaid therapist and minder.

x6 All we know is that it was an accident, he apologized and he stopped other people from saying it.

x5 1) Harry forgave Dudley, but not Draco. I always figured that was, because Dudley's family. Snape wasn't family and even then, you'll note his son isn't named Albus Dudley.

2) What's the context? Why was Hermione punished?

3) He's not the only teacher who was biased.

4) Neville being afraid of his teacher more than anything was Rule of Funny. I'm also pretty sure his backstory wasn't fleshed out at that point.

1) When was the last time that you watched it? I can't recall one instance of bullying from him. He wasn't an athlete, he wasn't particularly popular. He was on the outside. He wasn't like them. A better example would be Flash Thompson or maybe Andrew from the Breakfast Club.

2) Plenty. That's the thing. The Jerk Jock is usually popular. He's a Villain with Good Publicity.

3) Snape wasn't shooting up the school. He attacked the people who were attacking him. Let's take a look at what you guys are defending.

'I'm bored,' said Sirius. 'Wish it was full moon.'

'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. We've still got Transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me. Here . . .' and he held out his book.

But Sirius snorted. 'I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all.'

'This'll liven you up, Padfoot,' said James quietly. 'Look who it is Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.

'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'

Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at.

Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up.

Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows; Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face.

'All right, Snivellus?' said James loudly.

Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!'

4) It was an accident, he apologized and stopped other people from saying it.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:32:43 AM by 940131

If the Marauders truly wanted Snape dead, they would have killed him. These guys became illegal animagi under Dumbledore's nose, unlocked 97% of Hogwart's secrets and were masters of secrecy. If they wanted to kill Snape, it would have been easy for them to do it and get rid of his body, and nobody would even miss Snape. Okay, Lily would be worried for a few months but then she'd get over it.

So obviously James Potter wasn't in on it. It's clear from the dialogues that Sirius was being reckless as usual. So obviously his idea was to dare Snape to go down that tunnel and see for himself. Personally I think Snape was supremely stupid and naive to listen to Sirius but then that's close to Victim Blaming and I don't like doing that. He also wanted to expose and expel Remus Lupin who wasn't even involved in most of Sirius and James' antics. It's clear enough that James Potter wasn't in on that at all but it's easy for Snape to continue believing that especially since its an Embarassing Rescue for him. The point of the matter is that just because Snape was right about James being an arrogant show-off doesn't mean he's right about everything.

From a Doylist perspective, the text makes it clear that James was into that Thou Shalt Not Kill Honor Before Reason ethos, as Dumbledore and Remus tell him that James wouldn't have killed Pettigrew either which Harry also does. And obviously James saving Snape's life is symbolic, for Snape, of his moral triumph. If the situation was reversed, Snape would have left James to die as he indeed did with the whole prophecy thing. It must be hard and frustrating for a bully victim to see the guy who tormented him also be the better human being.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:56:08 AM by JulianLapostat

The fact of the matter is that James Potter isn't just a bully. He's the popular Big Man on Campus. He's the Cool Kid who befriends outsiders like Sirius (product of a Slytherin family and a Cultural Rebel) and Remus, the outcaste poor werewolf, and who stands up for progressive ideas. He's a good guy similar to James Dean in Rebel. Him bullying Snape doesn't change that at all. Rowling deliberately made that scene to deconstruct the difference between Big Man on Campus and The Bully. So obviously you can't use one dimensional examples like Flash Thompson. James isn't Dudley or Malfoy at all. He doesn't pick on people for being poor nor is he a racist snob who brings up family and stuff. He picks on people who are like Slytherins, who are odd and who he basically dislikes. And of course, Snape was friends with Lily which must have made him jealous as Word of God confirms.

edited 4th Oct '15 1:59:53 AM by JulianLapostat

For some reason, you still seem to think that being the most popular kid in school and a bully can't go hand in hand. It's been done a lot.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:09:18 AM by 940131

Honestly, Flash Thompson is a pretty good parallel to James. Because Flash stopped stopped being a bully.

A lot of portrayals of him don't get this far, but in the comics he actually mellowed out, made amends with and became friends with Peter (okay, Peter's definitely not Snape, the analogy isn't perfect), joined the army, and recently even became a superhero.

They aren't saying that James isn't a bully, they're saying that James was both a bully and a popular kid, like you said. It's just that the reasons that he's popular are, well, good reasons.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:10:08 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

1) Actually, I'd say Snape is a good fit for Peter. At least initially. A quiet, lonely, unpopular bookworm. He's even in love with a beautiful redhead.

2) Is that why he's popular? The only people who knew about what he did for Lupin were Wormtail and Sirius. He's saying that in school, James was the better guy. That James and Sirius were the good guys in the Marauders/Snape relationship. I posted part of Snapes Worst Memory. Can you tell me what makes them good in that scene?

edited 4th Oct '15 2:14:10 AM by 940131

Well if you think Draco Malfoy, who you compare James to, is "the most popular kid in Hogwarts" then obviously its different or if you think James is this one-dimensional bad guy with Snape as the misunderstood hero then obviously its misreading the scene and the context.

If it "shattered" Harry's perfect father image, how comes James accompanies Harry via Resurrection Stone in the final book, telling Harry So Proud of You in a way that is obviously meaningful from a Watsonian (Harry's perspective) and a Doylist perspective (authorial-reader). If it shattered, how is it that Harry names his eldest son after him. Dumbledore being friends with Grindelwald and briefly planning world domination "shatters" Harry's image far deeper than finding out his father bullied Snape or that Snape was right about one thing among all the crap he spouts.

1) Draco's popular in Slytherin, not that it matters.

2) Lily was the hero in that scene. The Marauders were the villains. Snapes somewhere in the middle. I posted part of it above. Please tell me whats admirable about it. How were they good?

3) What? He can still love his dad and Sirius. He just has to acknowledge that they weren't perfect. They did bad things. It's something that's acknowledged by Rowling, Sirius and Harry.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:20:19 AM by 940131

Draco is never implied to be the most popular kid at Hogwarts, or even popular, period. Does he even have any friends? The people who do hang out with him seem to do it solely because he's rich. Crabbe and Goyle certainly don't like or care about him, and the smarter Slytherins like Zabini or Nott seem to just grudgingly tolerate him.

I think you're focusing on the trivial. The point is that James, Draco and Dudley were bullies. They grew out of it, but it doesn't change the fact that in school they were jerks.

Well that scene doesn't say the whole picture. In that scene James and Sirius bullied and humiliated Snape in front of Hogwarts for kicks. But that action doesn't invalidate the fact that Snape is a Death Eater at training and that James and Sirius became heroes. Snape in the course of that uses a cutting curse as retaliation, escalating the fight right when Lily is dialling it down, and after she dials it down, he calls her Mudblood.

Snape being a bad guy is part of the point. You shouldn't even bully bad guys, that ultimately even if the victim really is unpopular for a good reason, he shouldn't be treated that way. It's why the scene is so effective. It's saying that even genuinely good people can bully and pick on other people. It's also saying that victims of bullying can also become oppressors like Snape immediately becomes by abusing Lily, and then years later bullying all the students. So it's making a bigger point then simply, "Poor Snape, got picked on by jerk who stole his girl."

edited 4th Oct '15 2:27:32 AM by JulianLapostat

1) Snape is a hero too.

2) A fight that they started while Snape was minding his own business, right?

3) I asked you this before and I don't think you gave ne an answer. What did Snape do in school that made him the bad guy?

4) Don't put words in my mouth. I don't fault Lily for breaking her friendship with him. James just wasn't the good guy. He started bullying him from their first meeting on the train. He hunted him down when he was minding his own business, because he was bored. He humiliated him in front of the school and ganged up on him. He was a bully not unlike Draco and Dudley. They grew up, but those are the facts.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:39:07 AM by 940131

Honestly, I don't think they are the good guys there. That was cruel and unnecessary. That said...

Let's be honest: very few people liked Snape. He had his Death Eater prospects club, and he had Lily. And the former...well, I have my theories about what they would get up to. People actually asked Lily why she even bothered hanging out with him. And when Snape calls her a Mudblood, that's enough to make her realize that she can't go on doing this. An apology won't cut it. Why should she think he's sincere - he's not going to stop hanging out with his mates from Slytherin.

James and Sirius were probably a lot like Fred and George for the most part - harmless pranks that never really hurt anyone. And people like Fred and George. But you know what people think about Snape? I'd imagine that it goes something like this (may contain inaccurate 1970s British wizard teenspeak):

"Hey, Potter, Black and Snape are going at it!"

"Snape? What a creep! He hangs around Mulciber, that one."

"Mulciber? Isn't he that bloke who tried to do you-know-what to Mary Mac Donald?"

"That's him. Fuck the lot of them."

I'm not saying it's right. It isn't. But if you're wondering why James and Sirius are popular while Snape isn't...it's something to consider.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:39:02 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

A fight Lily was ending, when Snape called her Mudblood, right? It doesn't really matter in the end.

Being a victim of bullying doesn't make you a hero. I am sorry. Being a victim makes you a victim and that's not a simple case where you try and sentimentalize their plight.

Snape only became a hero much much later. But at school he was a coward who wanted things both ways, made poor choices and was hateful, picking on Remus Lupin when he had worse problems than Snape or others. He was also a possessive guy who hated Muggles like trying to drive apart Lily and Petunia when they were kids as we see in the flashbacks.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:42:57 AM by JulianLapostat

He associated with a group of people who openly held racist beliefs, and expressed admiration of a violent terror organization that was keeping their country in a state of civil war. It'd be like hanging out with people who openly express their admiration of ISIS, and how they can't wait to join up with them once they've finished school.

x3 1) I don't blame her for breaking their friendship. She tried to help him and he lashed out at her with a racial slur, because he had been humiliated and wanted to feel big. It was inexcusable.

2) When did Fred and George do anything like that? When did they single someone out who was minding their own business, gang up on him and humiliate him in front of the school because they were bored? Fred and George are Bart Simpson. The Marauders are Nelson Muntz.

3) James is a star athlete. Sirius is gorgeous. Snape is a greasy, hook nosed nerd. Maybe that's why they're popular and he's not.

x2 1) You didn't answer the question.

2) He had worse problems than Snape? At the very least they were comparable. When did Snape pick on Remus anyways? I don't remember. What I do remember is Remus later regretting that he didn't step in to stop James and Sirius bullying Snape, because he knew it was wrong. Odd.

In American History X there's a scene where the main character comes to the defense of another white kid being bulkied in the bathroom. Is being a skinhead bad? Of course it. The Death Eaters are bad too, but I can't fauly Snape for looking for friends. Especially since we've seen what happens to him when he's alone.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:57:56 AM by 940131

Where you getting that from? Their interaction in the epilogue isn't friendly, but they don't act like enemies. For comparison, Rowling said that when Harry and Dudley would meet up later in life they'd just sit in silence while their children interacted. If poor Albus was to be named after every single (male) person Harry knew who turned out to be less of a shit than they originally were or seemed, he'd have a longer name than his greybearded namesake. Albus Severus Dudley Draco Lucius Kreacher Percy Gellert Regulus Grawp Potter, oh shit the train left while I was saying your full name.

Quibble: James didn't know he was a werewolf until after they were buds, and I'm pretty sure his poverty and outcast status in later life comes from it being bastard hard for a werewolf to make a decent living. I don't think he was poor or outcast when he was in school. He's not described as shabby or anything when he pops up in Snape's flashback, at least.

James gets points for sticking with him after his furry little problem is revealed, but it's not quite the same as befriending the guy known to have this feared condition.

Except for the palling around with budding magic neo-Nazis, of course. Unless by "initially" you meant before he took up with them?

Not sure we can call that one way or the other, given our limited view of Slytherin group dynamics. Like, we see Pansy being all smug about being his girlfriend, is that because he's rich or because she thinks he's the bees' knees? I don't know any way to tell.

edited 4th Oct '15 2:50:34 AM by rikalous