Airships and their weapons.

I seem to have killed the conversation does that mean I get to keep it?

Oh it is not dead. It goes in phases like this.

The conversation isn't dead, it's just hiding.

Ok we have covered quite a bit and sooner or later we need to make a faq of things we covered with details.

Ok we more or less have turrets, propulsion, aircraft launch and recovery, gun barges, spinal mounts for large caliber ship killer guns, refueling/coaling, wet navy is still useful but not as much as an airship is at warfare. We have touched on possible ideas for submarine style air ships that could cruise at low altitudes or around mountains and specialize in surprise attacks at distance.

But what about torpedeos. We have have touched on it before but never quite really sorted it out. Rockets would be great for general bombardment of a target but about a more accurate and focused blast from a semi-guided projectile. Guided projectiles are older then people give credit for and experimentation with wire directed munitions is hardly modern.

Example Here Wireless control actually.

Radio Guided bombs as early as 1942

Early Wireless controlled concepts pioneered by this man Archibald Low Supposedly Tesla had something around as well from which other wireless concepts were drawn.

I was thinking Torpedos could come in a few varities of behaviour and control.

Like I have seen in other fiction they are basically a unguided winged rocket used against large ships and fired at medium to close range. Something a fast moving attack craft could use. These could also be used in ground attack roles by fighter bomber type craft.

The next one would be wireless directed muntions still with a rocket propellant engine and a tail flare to aid in tracking.

The third would be wire guided or partially wire guided rocket propelled torpedos. They would have guide wires trailing off a spool that they could release from the unit once it was on target and in sufficient range to release guidance. Partial guidance would be for those ones that just need quick course correction then they drop the wires and let if fly on sans guidance. Better for fast attack boats.

The fourth variant would be like any of these but it would have one of the lift and propellant engines or a hybrid mix. Like a lift engine and propellor/rocket driven one.

Any of these could be used against ground targets as well.

The earliest infra red guided munitions were made just before the End of World War II we could play with that in th WWII era tech.

Then comes my favorite idea. Something like PT boats that act as fast attack craft that fire off the torpedoes and are armed with things like heavy machine guns and auto cannons maybe even a small caliber deck cannon like on some subs. Inspiration comes from the German Schnellboot or S-Boat called the E-Boat by allies.

edited 17th Jul '11 6:14:23 PM by TuefelHundenIV

"Dynamite bombs." That made me smile - I guess they hadn't invented the tern "High Explosive" in 1910.

Dynamite is a form of high explosive.

Which explosive were you thinking of?

The most common artillery filler was picric acid aka Lyddite a fused and solidified form of Picric Acid. Also note delayed impact fuses for the win.

edited 17th Jul '11 9:20:31 PM by TuefelHundenIV

according to this building a torpedo that does what you want it to would be easy, whether or not it would be easier than rockets or guided/unguided bombs seems to be a bit iffy but if things like teletanks and operation aphrodite existed then the problems shouldn't be insurmountable.

although if you're going to put rockets on you're torpedos might I sugest adding a super cavitation function? Sonar might have already been developed and wide spread but IIRC the subs couldn't outrun such a set up.

Also, the pictures I created do they fit you're vision? well besides not being up to par with Leviathans' artwork.

edited 18th Jul '11 4:30:42 AM by GiantSpaceChinchilla

Hmm Aerial cavitation would be good for advanced torpedos.

I think private covered hull shape earlier. They would be shorter then a water borne vessel but would be thicker in diameter over all. I think it was more cigar in shape with some adjustable trailing fins to help steer. I do like that keel type fin.

edited 18th Jul '11 3:58:25 AM by TuefelHundenIV

Oops, that was supposed to be a pagoda mast the thought of which was that since you're useing existing ship-yards their first attempts would be literally upside-down ships (externally, presumably the internals would change) with areo-keel and fins etc.

in retrospect, i'm not really sure where I got that idea.

the pagoda mast seems approprate though, it doesn't seem like there is too much incentive to build the thing long, compaired to a marine-ship.

Fridge Logic: What happens to water ships anyway?

Waterborne ships would still be used. Cheaper, that's why. Even now in the age of jet aircraft, tons of cargo is still ferried around on cargo ships and tankers. I'd imagine that this will still be the case, until the anti-grav technology gets to the point in which it's economically feasible to dispose of waterborne ships. I don't think that will happen, though, and cargo airships would be used only for sensitive cargos or time-sensitve cargos.

Basically, you'll have the shipping speeds of today back in WWI days or earlier, if you can afford to pay the increased shipping fee, as an airship can move at about what - did we agree on 100 MPH as a good figure, Tuefel? - four times what a waterborne vessle can move at. maybe faster. Cargo ships are slow, as moving quickly burns up precious fuel. The airship has 1/800th as much drag on it as it woud in water (or something, as air is 1/800th as dense as water) so that you can get higher speeds, thereabouts.

So your air-deflection control surfaces (rudder, spoiles, air brakes things like that) on an airship would have to be quite a bit larger than that of a waterborne ship. A Zepplin-like shape is more or less the ideal shape (to minimize drag, and it has the large control surfaces at the aft end), but they're like that because that's the best way to make a gas-filled volume that can suppourt its onw weight and the bouyant gas contained inside it.

An airships that is essentially a waterborne ship with lifting grids slapped on will fare poorly in the speed an maneuverability department as opposed to the dedicated purpose-designed airship that looks more like a heavy zepplin than a ship.

Something like top speed around 100 for the medium ones at least. The large ones would likely be slower due to weight, air resistance, and other issues associated with scaling it up.

In theory you could design the air ships to land on water surfaces. Ideally though if they need land they would be using some sort of landing cradle type devices.

Water landings would greatly simplify the need to take on boiler water, yes. But if it's saltwater, you'll need a desalinization plant. Not a big deal, though, just another piece of machinery.

So the ship, due to the need to properly sit on the water with no lifting grid active, will still have to retain a basic boat-like shape, even though a zepplin-cigar shape is more ideal for air resistance. Add in docking cradles or at least a strong retractable landing gear (not enough for full weight, just reduced grid power) and we're set.

Well, that settles that point, then.

You could have an airship do a water landing to conserve electricity and fuel for a time, if they needed to. Also, secret airship posing as a typical ship. Subterfuge for the win.

Q surface ships. I like that idea.

They could also deploy or have stabilizing pontoons attached to them.

I'd imagine that it would be darn near impossible to sink an airship, provided that it doesn't lose grid power.

That and you can counter-act flooding by providing power to the apropriate lifting grids.

Or... Go all-heavy armor across the entire ship, tell maximum water displacement to go piss up a rope, and run lifting power all day - cram in 100,000 tons of mass into a ship that only displaces 40,000 tons, or something along those lines.

Drawback: You'll have to dry-dock it every time you're in port, only don't drain the water out, so it's a wet-dock.

That actually presents an interesting idea. You could make really heavy ships and use lifting grids to offset displacement issues.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, what happens to the navy? if the tech marches on earlier than in the real verse wouldn't that mean that a lot of shipping companies that support warships and build them have to sink or swim on to new waters? That’s a lot of infrastructure.

Further would Airborne Aircraft Carriers supplant Airborne Artillery Monitors? I wouldn't guess so but it's possible, if taken to extremes there might be less interest in developing missiles especially if they get mid-air refueling early, leading to a lag in space and computer technologies. Why? Mostly because ballistic science is easier than rocket science.

Or not, I'm pretty sure the rule for alt histories is Like Reality, Unless Noted.

Yeah, we discussed Airborne artillery monitors - the seagoing counterpart, only in the air. Slow as hell, but it packs a lot of artillery on board. You'd move it into position for fire-support in conjunction with ground forces and spew HE shells all over the enemy lines.

That or park it above a base and you got a great observation platform and the ability to spew HE death over attacking ground forces. make it big enough, and you got yourself a giant floating fortress.

Of course, such a large thing in the air would be impossible to hide and it becomes a gigantic bomb magnet. Might as well light it up with neon signs saying "SHOOT ME".

There will still be a wet navy. They wet navy will be easier to operate, man, a bit cheaper, and easier to build. Sort of mix and match is likely to happen. Wet water military will become less common and wet water shipping will the main stay for non specialized shipping purposes or mass/bulk shipping. Especially for fuels.

Ok I hit on an idea for a psuedo exotic torpedo. For the tele-operated/tele guided torpedos a projectile style warhead. Basically the torpedo body acts as an gun/barrel guide for an armor piercing shell. They pilot the torpedo to engagement range then instead of trying to impact the target ship it fires a powerful close range armor piercing shell. It will have high velocity over short ranges and would be harder to intercept.

Also considering that air ships are basically large pressurized vessels I would assume that powerful over pressure close to the hull would be devastating. So warheads like HESH war heads would be positively devastating to the air ships. That and in modern ships thermobaric war heads.

Boiler Powered Torpedo boat We can so work with this.

edited 28th Jul '11 7:25:37 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Recursive Ammo FTW.

edited 28th Jul '11 6:45:14 PM by Deboss

Damn, I wish I'd been around when this thread started. You and I have nearly the same idea (naval vessels in the air!), except we (as I understand it) play it for different uses. You're looking specifically at how the airships change things, whereas mine are just one of a whole host of strange war machines. Still, basically all the things I could have suggested that seem remotely plausible within your setting has been said already. Although I did like the idea of a mini-boarding ship; I'm rather sad that I probably couldn't work it in at this point, since my story is, by and large, finalized.

I think the biggest difference between our ideas, functionality-wise, besides when we introduce the airship tech (you in 1913 [?], me in 1889) is how they work. Speaking of which, where do we get the Applied Phlebotinum for this? Also, how does it affect the Pacific Front of World War Two? I can imagine the US would have loved to have this kind of thing for bombing the Japanese.

I would suggest Tesla coils, but 1) I already used that (), and 2) I doubt you'd have a good power source for it...

I have considered something for tesla tech as a means to transmit power to a floating fortress meaning the fuel and generators are ground side meaning the fort only has to lift the body, engines, and anythng you tack on.

Airships would be introduced in the late 1800's but would not fully take off on a large scale until the early 1900's.

Which is why Pvtnum11 and I went over early conversion airships. Basically steam powered ships that are retrofitted for the lift engines. They would rely on coal, boilers, and early electromagnetic generators. Basically the tech to make it happen will occur sooner strictly for the purpose of the story.

Ok my exotic torpedo idea came from this.

Torpedo Carrying Missile◊

The face of naval operations on a wet water navy would be dramatically changed as the airships would have the advantage as a vessel of war. The pacific campaign would be quite very different. It would be harder to use naval blockade on the sea to discourage inasion. Instead the threat of interception and shoot downs would be the threat from other Aerial navies.

The ore is going to be found around/in volcanic rock. The metal will be found by accident by a German Scientist experimenting with electricity.

edited 28th Jul '11 8:39:44 PM by TuefelHundenIV

A coilgun that shoots harpoons.

Oh, I realize the tech was probably introduced earlier, but it only counts when weaponized. Mine was around with weapons "out of the box" by 1889, is what I meant, whereas in your universe they don't get them out till World War One is on the doorstep.

Oo, cool. How about trench warfare in World War One? It sounds like these could break it earlier, although I suppose if the two sides are relatively equal in number and quality it might cancel out...

I find it amusing how similar—and yet very different—our ideas cut. Great minds must think alike, no? We even have the "it was the Germans who did it first!" thing down, .

So, is it a specific volcanic reaction that makes it, or just random stuff that happens all the time in volcanoes? That might actually affect how easy it is to get them. Speaking of which, where does Europe get the materials for this? If there's some in the Pacific Rim, I can see the imperialization heading there more than Africa, and the US might get a good lead just because of Hawaii...?

I haven't come up with the fluff other then they find it various volcanic strata. I have toyed with the idea that being able to sample liquid magma and process the cooled rock would yield some purified material in a metallic crystalline form. Any mountain ranges that were once volcanically active have a strong chance to have at least low grade concentrations of the ore. The ore proper needs to be alloyed with various metals.

The early weaponized war ships would be around the Mexican American War and a few militarized test runs prior. I want to have some smaller ambitious nation to actually have a small airship gun boat before anyone else makes serious air ship warships. To start each nation will have a few converted warships that will partially rely on wet navy coaling/water ships for resupply.