Rework or Cleanup:: Evilly Affable

Evilly Affable seems to have trouble deciding what it wants to be or differentiating itself from other tropes. The description seems to be someone who's funny or entertaining, but also evil (which seems very similar to Laughably Evil or possibly Unintentionally Sympathetic).

The examples are all over the place. Some are nice people who are also evil (in which case they would be Affably Evil). Others are evil characters the user found funny (again. Laughably Evil).

This needs an example cleanup at least, but I don't know where to start since I'm not really sure what the trope is actually going for. If I were to think about the trope, it would probably be someone who takes great joy and humor out of being a Complete Monster, or someone who's pleasantness improves as they become more evil or dangerous.

There's an attempt to make a new page at Sandbox.Evilly Affable

edited 6th Dec '10 1:48:22 PM by arks

Even the description can't decide whether or not it's Laughably Evil. This needs a rework, pronto.

Since no one is objecting, it looks like we have free reign to redefine it. Which parts should we keep?

Yeah, needs massively changing.

Also: The complete opposite of this trope is the Complete Monster, who is irredeemably evil in ways that aren't entertaining. Your Mileage May Vary on which side a particular villain may belong, though some are more clear-cut than others.

That's not the complete opposite. Hell, they can probably overlap. The complete opposite would be a good guy who's deadly serious, as far as I can tell.

^^ Er... well... the technicalities of it are that, while Laughably Evil showed up on YKTTW first, Evilly Affable was launched and made first, and I didn't realize it existed until long after I launched Laughably Evil.

And then, thanks to Wiki Magic, Laughably Evil ended up describing the concept better. Shrug.

Evilly Affable can still be a separate trope, though. We just have to alter its meaning slightly to fit the words better.

So now we need a new definition. Start suggesting. I made mine in the OP, anyone else have some?

And the post above reminds me. Where did the link to YKTTW discussion go to on the trope pages? It would be nice to see how the original discussion went. EDIT: Nevermind. I found it. It was hidden. That thing was definitely launched prematurely.

edited 10th Sep '10 2:15:52 AM by arks

The complete opposite of this trope is the Complete Monster, who is irredeemably evil in ways that aren't entertaining.

... what? According to the discussion page for Complete Monster, coolness and funniness are not supposed to negate the category; why would the article for Evilly Affable imply that it does?

I don't even know what this trope is about, really.

I think Evilly Affable is a trope about characters who meet the criteria for Complete Monster (or at least most of the criteria) but are so cool and/or funny that they are likeable regardless. (Ie. Joker, McLeach, etc...)

^ Like Xykon from Order Of The Stick. He's horribly, horribly evil and not at all nice but rather funny. Then again, that means I have no idea what the difference is between this and Laughably Evil.

edited 10th Sep '10 7:17:04 AM by Arha

Probably that Evilly Affable implies rather extreme villainy, whereas Laughably Evil can apply to mild OR extreme villainy. @ Arha

edited 10th Sep '10 7:36:13 AM by neoYTPism

That seems too much like The Same But More.

Yeah, there's a little too much overlap here.

My attempt to get the thread attention totally worked!

*ahem*

The only thing this trope includes that Laughably Evil doesn't is villains that are entertaining, but not funny, and that gets into a realm of subjectivity that I don't think we should enter.

I recall a description once that perfectly summed up this trope in a comparison of Evilly Affable and Affably Evil and make complete sense of the names.

Can't quite tell you what it is though.

I remember the general gist because it really was what the names should tell you.

• Affably Evil is something like The Mayor from The Show (really do we have to spell out Buffy The Vampire Slayer everytime?). He's polite, he doesn't swear, he retains an air of penache... and he does it while sacrificing children. He does evil things while being nice about it. It's like a very perverse form of Even Evil Has Standards.

• Evilly Affable- I think the example was The Joker (which is a pain because that character never stays a trope example for long). He's evil and the way he is evil? He makes jokes. The jokes are evil. All the affable stuff is tied into the evil stuff. Your character being humourous or badass or stylish is expressed by him pouring acid on someone's face.

Of course, when I look at the original YKTTW I say to myself "What do you mean Affably Evil means you have goodness alongside your villainy?!" and "What does redeeming qualties have to do with it?", throwing in "How is the To Kill A Mockingbird example someone going about evil in an affable way? He's not being a bumbling hick while beating his daughter. He's a prick who makes a show for the trial."

Just to add to that, the picture on the page kind of cemented what I thought the definition of the trope would be. The character just beat up the hero, and he's smiling at the guy, and Saying It With A Heart. The politeness and humor is connected to their evil, not separated from it.

The Joker is also a good example because at least in DCAU, he seems to get really grumpy when he's not being evil.

edited 10th Sep '10 4:19:40 PM by arks

The way I interpreted it was that Evilly Affable was primarily evil, with the affable part connected to it, whereas Affably Evil was primarily affable, with the evil part connected to it. Hence Evilly Affable villains would be much more extreme, but manage to have some sense of charisma nonetheless.

Could you explain that in more detail, please? What does "more extreme" mean to you, and where is the cutoff point between Affably Evil and Evilly Affable?

edited 11th Sep '10 6:47:15 AM by arks

Evilly Affable and Affably Evil are quite distinct. Evil but amusing vs nice but evil. But is there any meaningful difference between Evilly Affable and Laughably Evil?

I think in terms of actions, an Evilly Affable villain will tend to be more extreme than an Affably Evil one. For example, Dark Knight's Joker is Evilly Affable, and also a Complete Monster. I think Affably Evil villains are less likely to be Complete Monster types.

Also, there are moments in The Dark Knight when Joker at least ACTS friendly (see the "I don't want to be any hard feelings between us, Harvey, you and your girlfriend was nothing personal" scene) so I would think Evilly Affable is also for friendly villains who are too extreme to qualify as Affably Evil.

EDIT: Also, Laughably Evil is a much broader trope, and Evilly Affable is more specific... it's probably a subtrope of Laughably Evil for villains who are actually threatening, whereas Laughably Evil can also apply to villains who are less threatening.

edited 11th Sep '10 9:00:38 AM by neoYTPism

Oh, so that's how it is.

I don't think there's enough practical difference here, especially if you add in the existence of Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain for not threatening but funny baddies.

edited 11th Sep '10 9:06:11 AM by Arha

So, I think the best definition so far is something like what SSOT and I are suggesting. Do you have anything to say about those, Arha?

I thought Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain was more so for "pitiful" villains, and that they may or may not be funny.

In any case, that still leaves room for both Evilly Affable and the funny varieties of Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain to both be sub-tropes of Laughably Evil yet very distinct from each other.

EDIT: Also, Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain and Evilly Affable aren't the only options for how threatening a villain can be either. With the former being practically harmless, and the latter being the most extreme evil next to Complete Monster, (and even then there's room for overlap, such as the Joker) I would assume there is plenty of room for a middle ground.

edited 11th Sep '10 9:30:57 AM by neoYTPism

I'm with arks and SSOT on this one—their definition is the one the makes the most sense when extrapolating from Affably Evil, and it does keep the trope distinct from Laughably Evil.

I think we've got Evilly Affable pretty well defined here—guy who's so evil its funny (Crossing the Line Twice and Refuge in Audacity). Laughably Evil I'm having more trouble with. It seems like it was going for someone who's funny, and they just happen to be evil, but its hard to tell.