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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#226: Feb 26th 2010 at 6:43:59 PM

Quite likely.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#227: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:01:05 PM

I think part of the point of the confusing languages thing was to serve as a kick to get people to actually scatter across the world like they were told to.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#228: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:04:24 PM

But people with different languages live in the same place all the time.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#229: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:17:10 PM

With interpreters. Otherwise you lack the political cohesion to maintain a single settlement.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#230: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:26:51 PM

Well, I would think that training people to be interpreters would take less effort than starting a settlement from scratch.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#231: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:33:09 PM

In the training time, though, you've already got factions formed.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
Tzetze DUMB from a converted church in Venice, Italy Since: Jan, 2001
DUMB
#232: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:37:04 PM

So? Trade cities always have districts for different cultures. Little Italy and so on. No reason they can't coexist.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.
Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#233: Feb 26th 2010 at 7:44:00 PM

As far as the whole language thing goes I'd like everyone to know that linguistic nativism is bunk. I always read the Tower Of Babel as your standard anti-hubris story.

Kill all math nerds
SpaceJawa UTINNI! from Right Here Since: Jan, 2001
UTINNI!
#234: Feb 27th 2010 at 12:26:27 AM

There was a religion class I took in college this one time, the professor there had an interesting take on God's comment about Babel - he interpreted it as being done sarcastically or as a Deadpan Snarker moment. It's an interesting take that stuck with me as something I remember from the class.

Either way, it's hard to imaging God possibly worrying that his creation could pose a true threat of defying him in any realistic way, or of mankind actually being able to reach a point like that.

If I had to guess myself, I'd theorize that Babel was meant as teachable/humbling experience. Possibly with a touch of Take That!. Though I like the idea of it being his way of telling people "No, I said go out and spread amongst the Earth, don't just stay in one place" too.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#235: Mar 9th 2010 at 1:16:53 PM

I know, I'm useless at keeping a schedule. I'll try to make some real progress with this update.

Genesis 12 (12? Gah, there's 50 of these things!) begins with "God's Call to Abram".

The Lord instructs Abram to leave his country and his relatives and journey to a country which the Lord will show him. The Lord says that He will give Abram many descendants who will become a great nation, and that He will bless Abram, bless those who bless him, curse those who curse him, and, through him, bless all the nations (or, a footnote suggests, this part could mean that all nations will wish the Lord blessed them like He blessed Abram). He will make Abram's name famous.

When Abram is 75, he leaves Haran, along with Lot, Sarai and all the slaves and wealth they have in Haran, and heads for Canaan (so although they apparently travelled to Canaan in the last chapter, it sounds like they actually stopped outside it, then). Once in Canaan, Abram continues to the sacred tree of Moreh, the holy place in Shechem, which is at the time inhabited by Canaanites. The Lord appears to Abram (physically?) and tells him that this is the land He will give to Abram's descendants. Abram builds an altar to the Lord and moves south to the hill country east of Bethel and west of Ai, where he sets up camp. He builds another altar and worships the Lord there. Then he continues south, into southern Canaan. End of section.

The next section is entitled "Abram in Egypt". There's a famine in Canaan which is so severe that he moves further south to live in Egypt.

Before crossing the border, Abram does something very strange: he tells Sarai that, because she is a beautiful wife, the Egyptians will kill him for her. Therefore, he will tell them that she is his sister, so that they will let him live as well.

OK, seems fair enough. But then when they reach Egypt, the Egyptians indeed see that Sarai is beautiful, and the court officials tell the king about her. She is consequently taken to his palace to be his wife. No mention of how Sarai feels about this arrangement.

So, because of Sarai, the king treats Abram well, and gives him - and I quote - "flocks of sheep and goats, cattle, donkeys, slaves and camels". I love how slaves are listed amongst livestock here.

But of course, because the king has married the already married Sarai, the Lord plagues him and the people of the palace with terrible diseases. Seems a mite unfair, since the king doesn't even know she's Abram's wife, and the king evidently feels the same way; he asks Abram why the hell he didn't say that Sarai was his wife, and why the hell he lied and said she was his sister. Abram and Sarai are then chucked out of Egypt, along with all of Abram's possessions. End of chapter.

So, we begin Genesis 13, section headed "Abram and Lot Separate". And I didn't even know they were married![1]

Abram returns to southern Canaan, taking with him his wife and all of his possessions, including sheep, goats, cattle, silver and gold. Lot comes too.

Abram moves north to the altar between Bethel and Ai, where he worships the Lord. Lot comes with him, bringing his own livestock, family and servants. There isn't enough pasture for both Abram and Lot's livestock, causing their servants to start quarrelling.

At this time the Canaanites and the Perizzites are still living in this land. Presumably they later won't be.

Abram says that since he and Lot are relatives, their men should not be quarrelling. He proposes that they separate. Lot, seeing that the Jordan Valley has plenty of water, much like Egypt and the Garden of the Lord, claims the entire valley as his own and travels east. He camps near Sodom, where the people are wicked and sinful. (It is helpfully explained that this was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Way to go and spoil it, guys!)

New section, entitled "Abram Moves to Hebron". After Lot has left, the Lord tells Abram to look carefully in all directions from where he is standing; the Lord is going to give him all the land he can see, and so many descendants that it would be no more possible to count them all than to count all the specks of dust on the Earth. I have no idea what kind of figure this denotes, or whether this is even physically possible, but OK, that's a lot.

The Lord then tells Abram that he should look over the whole of this land because the Lord is going to give it to him, so Abram moves his camp to the sacred trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he builds another altar to the Lord.

It seems extraordinary to me that the Lord should choose this one man and treat him as being so very significant. I can't help but wonder why Abram has been chosen in this way; is he exceptionally virtuous, like Noah? Or is there some other reason? Clearly Abram is a wealthy man, but he hasn't demonstrated any exceptional virtue at this point, unless it's the business with the altars. We shall see.

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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#236: Mar 9th 2010 at 1:23:23 PM

Hmmm, according to my swedish bible translation Lot is Abram's nephew. I thought they were brothers? Huh.

That said, the focus on the verse seems to be on the various locations Abram visited and built altars on. Seems a clear "claim-making" point to these verses.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#237: Mar 9th 2010 at 1:29:16 PM

Lot is Abram's nephew. He's the son of Haran, Abram's brother.

I agree, that does appear to be what Abram is doing.

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Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#238: Mar 9th 2010 at 2:48:42 PM

Abram can't really be called exceptionally virtuous, no; he is at least willing to trust God's instructions, however.

As for why Abram's been chosen, it doesn't seem like there's any particular reason for him, and I think that's the point.

Do you highlight everything looking for secret messages?
S.exe I'm back, bitches! from YOUR SOUL! Since: Feb, 2010
I'm back, bitches!
#239: Mar 9th 2010 at 4:18:50 PM

Perhaps God has "Gene Vision" and is actually making him the Father of His People objectively rather than subjectively.

BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#241: Mar 9th 2010 at 5:27:28 PM

I think what S.exe is saying is:

God knows he wants to bless the Israelites, so he therefore goes back in time and blesses their first (or well, third) common ancestor.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#242: Mar 9th 2010 at 5:32:35 PM

But the Israelites wouldn't be a separate people if God hadn't... Never mind, God works in mysterious and confusing ways.

Kill all math nerds
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#243: Mar 11th 2010 at 5:04:34 PM

Genesis 14, in which "Abram Rescues Lot". This should be good.

So, we have an alliance between four kings, Amraphel of Babylonia, Arioch of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer of Elam and Tidal of Goiim. They go to war against an alliance of five kings, Bera of Sodom, Birsha of Gomorrah, Shinab of Admah, Shemeber of Zeboiim and the unnamed king of Bela (or Zoar). Might be worth noting here that "Goiim" apparently just means "nations".

Anyway, the five kings had joined forces in the Valley of Siddim, which is now the Dead Sea. They had been under Chedorlaomer's control for twelve years before rebelling against him in the thirteenth. In the fourteenth year, Chedorlaomer and his allies defeated various people, including the Amorites, who you might remember as being descendants of Canaan.

Then, the five allied kings go to battle with the four kings in the Valley of Siddim. They retreat, and Bera and Birsha fall into tar pits, leaving Sodom and Gomorrah without rulers. The cities are raided by the four kings, who carry away Lot and all of his possessions.

But there is hope! One man escapes the pillaging and brings word to Abram, who is currently living by the sacred trees belonging to Mamre, an Amorite. Mamre and his brothers, Eschol and Aner, are allies of Abram, and when Abram hears that his nephew has been kidnapped, he rallies up the 318 fighting men in the camp, and pursues the four kings to Dan. They split up, attack by night, and defeat their enemies, driving them to Hobah, north of Damascus. They also recover the loot and rescue Lot, as well as the women and the other prisoners. Go Abram!

So now, "Melchizedek Blesses Abram". Abram returns home and meets with the king of Sodom (presumably the successor to the last one) in the Valley of Shaveh, also called the King's Valley. Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of the Most High God - first time that title for God has been used, BTW - brings Abram bread and wine, blesses him and asks the Most High God to bless him, and praises the Most High God for giving Abram victory over his enemies. Abram gives Melchizedek a tenth of the loot, which seems very generous of him. I wonder, is the bread and wine religiously significant at this point, or is that merely a coincidence?

The King of Sodom tells Abram to give him his people back, but keep the loot. However, Abram swears before the Lord, the Most High God, Maker of heaven and earth  *

that he wil not keep anything of the king's, because he doesn't want the king to claim to be the one who made Abram rich. He accepts only what his men have already used. He does, however, allow Aner, Eschol and Mamre to take their share. End chapter.

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S.exe I'm back, bitches! from YOUR SOUL! Since: Feb, 2010
I'm back, bitches!
#244: Mar 11th 2010 at 7:44:30 PM

A note, the three sons of Noah are said to be the ancestors of the three primary races.

silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#245: Mar 11th 2010 at 8:26:04 PM

Said by who? Racist people in the 19th century?

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S.exe I'm back, bitches! from YOUR SOUL! Since: Feb, 2010
I'm back, bitches!
#246: Mar 12th 2010 at 10:24:30 AM

How is that racist?

As the OP said, the geography matches up. It makes sense. Three races->three sons.

Myrmidon The Ant King from In Antartica Since: Nov, 2009
The Ant King
#247: Mar 12th 2010 at 12:05:11 PM

^Their are more than three races.

Kill all math nerds
S.exe I'm back, bitches! from YOUR SOUL! Since: Feb, 2010
I'm back, bitches!
#248: Mar 12th 2010 at 8:42:16 PM

No, there are three races, and there are mixtures and variations, Just like the only three colors of pigment are Red, Blue, and Yellow.

jaimeastorga2000 Indeed Since: May, 2011
Indeed
#249: Mar 12th 2010 at 10:49:14 PM

Er... I can think of 4 basic races, at least. Whites, blacks, asians, and indians.

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Arilou Taller than Zim from Quasispace Since: Jan, 2001
Taller than Zim
#250: Mar 12th 2010 at 11:13:22 PM

The classical number is five: African, Asiatic, Indo-European, American and Australian.

Of course, that's way of sorting it with very little basis in actual science, but it's certainly better than three.

"No, the Singularity will not happen. Computation is hard." -Happy Ent

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