Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

Bull. They, at most, were able to disobey the letter of an order. Even then I'm not sure I'd go that far; Hayate told them not to hurt anyone and they, indeed, did not hurt any living humans.

edited 21st Apr '15 5:09:46 AM by Night

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What? Vita giga-drilled-breakered Nanoha into a building (it was even more brutal in the movie) and then Shamal drained her linker core. Nanoha was only able to get back up because Yuuno used healing magic on her and she was still hurt. Fate took some damage too and had her linker core drained. If Vita did that to someone that wasn't so tanky like Fate, they could have died. They lied to Hayate the whole time in order to try and save her life. What they didn't do was kill anyone. But in no way did it seem like they didn't kill because they couldn't disobey orders. They didn't kill out of respect for Hayate (it wasn't necessary to accomplish their goal, anyways) and because they made a promise (the wolkenritter to each other) not to kill anyone before they started on the crusade to save Hayates life. What their promise basically said was "We won't kill anyone, but beyond that, we'll do anything in our power to save Hayate" That encompasses a great deal of things.

On another note, I don't remember in the series, but in the movie they broke their promise and tried to kill Nanoha and Fate after the hospital scene where Nanoha and Fate were visiting Hayate. Because Nanoha/Fate found out about their link with Hayate and they definitely didn't want the TSAB knowing about it.

Lastly, if they were simply following Hayate's orders they would have done no crime. So all their actions were a result of their own choices. Which is why they would be liable for their crimes, even if it was for a good reason.

edited 21st Apr '15 10:28:21 AM by Plund3r

Ah, I see the problem.

You didn't bother to pay attention to anything but the fight scenes. So you have no idea why the Wolkenritter started gathering pages for the book, or that Hayate found out about what they were doing and gave them orders as she regarded their methods of doing so as unacceptable, or that they were unable to break those orders and had to adopt an alternate methodology so they wouldn't actually break those orders.

And you didn't manage to watch Striker S either which explains the outcome of their trial and the fact that a diminished capacity defense was crucial to it. (Or maybe you just don't believe in diminished capacity, which is dumb.)

So let me explain it to you: Hayate's condition in the show has no medical basis. It is a result of the Book of Darkness. The Wolkenritter knew that they could delay Hayate's progressive paralysis by adding pages to the Book, and possibly reverse it by completing the Book. They took steps towards this goal, probably having asked Hayate for permission to do so but perhaps not. (She certainly made out that they had her permission but that she was not aware of what they were asking for at trial, and given her age that's likely legit. It's implied she didn't have to do this, but it's not clear whether that's because the Wolkenritter would take the fall for her or because it's not true.) At some point, Hayate found out that people were getting hurt as a result of this and told them this was unacceptable. The Wolkenritter ceased to attack people and went with a significantly less efficient route of attacking animals with Linker Cores. Any further personal injury was a result of the Lieze twins past that point, including the near-destruction of the Wolkenritter themselves.

Now go back and watch the show and read the mangas and actually pay attention this time.

edited 21st Apr '15 10:44:11 AM by Night

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You didn't bother to pay attention to anything but the fight scenes. So you have no idea why the Wolkenritter started gathering pages for the book, or that Hayate found out about what they were doing and gave them orders as she regarded their methods of doing so as unacceptable, or that they were unable to break those orders and had to adopt an alternate methodology so they wouldn't actually break those orders.

You're going to need to provide evidence for this because I don't recall any of it.

Albeit I haven't watched the series in a long time, but the movies had none of that. What I really need evidence on is where in the series it states that the wolkenritter used an alternate methodology because they could not disobey orders (which they clearly did, anyways) and not because they chose to only disobey the orders that impede them from saving Hayates life, while obeying the ones that don't directly affect them from achieving their goal. I think of the wolkenritter following Hayate as more of a pride and loyalty thing. They are not incapable of disobeying Hayate but they will do anything for her short of being the reason for her demise. If they had to choose between disobeying Hayate or watching Hayate die, they would choose the former. It's also possible that there is a way to outright control the wolkenritter (perhaps using the book) but since Hayate only politely asked them, they are able to disobey her.

Signum and Vita had been fighting Nanoha and Fate all throughout the series, when exactly did Hayate give those orders? Because they clearly were not only attacking animals. I don't see how any of what you says makes them any less liable for their actions. Hayate didn't tell them to do anything illegal, they chose to do that on their own. All of the choices that could get them in trouble were their own choices. That is why they would be held liable for them.

edited 21st Apr '15 11:42:17 AM by Plund3r

OK, both of you pack it in.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

That's Episode 09.

They were hiding from the TSAB there, Hayate didn't have any idea until the awakening.

A bit of corrections, if I may:

They explicitly stated that they did not want Hayate to find out that they were collecting pages for the B.o.D. Hayate's order for them was to not do anything related to the B.o.D and live a normal life with her. This is why they take steps to ensure that Hayate doesn't find out they've been linker core hunting, even having excuses as to why they leave the house. Signum even stated that what they're doing is a direct breach of the oath she made to Hayate, but as she stated to Fate, they are prepared to throw away everything if it means saving their mistress, including their honor as knights

The only point when Hayate found out what her guardian knights have done is after she already got control of the B.o.D, in which she states she got the information from Reinforce. In the case of attacking people, Vita explicitly stated she will not kill people as she did not want Hayate's name and future be one with bloodshed. However, she never stated she wouldn't get their linker cores, heck the first episode has her harvesting cores from a group of TSAB mooks. Admiral Leti's report about the case even has some people and animals as victims. Why did they stop attacking people altogether? After attacking Nanoha, the TSAB will surely be hot on their trails, so they went for the alternative and harvested cores from giant monsters in far off worlds.

I think it was mentioned in a sound stage that Hayate took responsibility of the Wolkenritter's actions simply because she's their master, and any excuse the Wolkenritter may have would not have been believed because back then, everybody who knew about the B.o.D thought that the guardian knights only acted upon the orders of whoever was the B.o.D's master. Auris Gaiz even flat out accusses Hayate of just sitting pretty while her knights collected cores so she could save her own skin in Strikers. Hayate's reply to that was something along the lines of "I won't deny that, since that is what you know but we have more important issues right now."

Shin Sonic Form put her in a one-piece leotard. I'd think the next step would be either a tank top with short shorts, or a bikini. Then we may talk about the next next step being effective nudity.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

That had been my line of logic as well.

Doesn't work; it's explicitly stated they were told not to hurt people when Signum reacts to the attempt to take Fate's Linker Core by the disguised Lieze twins. It also comes up before then in that episode when Vita is commenting on why they're hunting animals; Hayate told them not to hurt people.

I dunno if it was changed for the dub or something, but that's what the original Japanese said.

So also your first part doesn't work. It's possible, I suppose, that Hayate didn't know the context, but she definitely knew people had gotten hurt and objected to it at some point, forcing the switch in tactics. As for Signum's commentary, she says this, but she's in the process of obeying the letter of Hayate's commands; at best she's worried about violating the spirit, and at worst, given the situation, she's concerned she's violated them because she herself has been harmed.

edited 21st Apr '15 5:17:30 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.

I'm sorry... what?

O...kay, I will have to get back to you on this one, since I am writing this on the top of my head while at work. As far as I can remember, Signum's reaction was not because somebody was hurt, it was somebody was helping them complete the book. They even placed security measures and Shamal volunteered to stay behind as they themselves were wary of this person who might use Hayate as a hostage.

Okay this one I'm pretty sure. Hayate didn't know anything until she was inside the B.o.D and was witnessing things in some sort of Exposition Beam, that wasn't shown. Like in the earlier post, she didn't want her knights to do anything remotely related to the book. She was content on having a family, and flat out states that hurting others for the sake of her own recovery would be selfish.

This one I'm pretty confused as you're making it sound like Signum is applying some sort of Loophole Abuse on her oath. No, she and the other wolkenritter clearly broke their oath to Hayate to not do anything related to the B.o.D. She even says "Mistress Hayate, we shall be breaking our oath to you this one time. Please forgive us." before they went on their separate ways. She says this on the rooftop, in front of the other knights, without Hayate (as she was in the hospital that time)

Yeah, they pretty much do what they want because they want to help Hayate the way they've decided is the best one, regardless of what Hayate herself says. They want to respect her wishes, but circumstances force them to go rogue. Well, from their perspective, anyway.

edited 21st Apr '15 6:09:08 PM by AnotherDuck

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Debating a Magical Girl show on company time? Shame on you!

Heh, my officemates sleep on the job. I'm being productive here :D

edited 21st Apr '15 6:28:02 PM by Hoki

Shin Sonic Form put her in a one-piece leotard. I'd think the next step would be either a tank top with short shorts, or a bikini. Then we may talk about the next next step being effective nudity.

Come on guys. Fate getting faster doesn't mean she needs to lose pieces of her clothing. I'm pretty sure Sonic form only weighs a few ounces. Look how tight and thin it is. Maybe she can gain some flier fins on her hands and feet to boost speed, or she can outright gain the ability to teleport. That would be cool.

" I'd think the next step would be either a tank top with short shorts"

Though an adult Fate wearing a tank top and short shorts is relevant to my interests...

edited 21st Apr '15 7:05:20 PM by Plund3r

Nah, I'd rather Fate be so friggin' fast that she can move from point A to B in less time than it takes a teleporter to do so.

"Company time"? I have my own hours.

Are you saying you don't want to see Fate wearing less clothes?

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No, more speed=less clothing. Especially on Fate.

You ever wonder why De Ville teleports, he doesn't wear a shirt.

edited 21st Apr '15 7:07:03 PM by Hoki

See, everyone? He understands the relevant logic at work here!

I'm kind of torn, tbh. I feel there is a time for Fate to show off that super soldier trained body of hers, and there is a time for Fate to take care of business, in modest-like fashion.

I'm not sure I completely understand the logic in less clothes = more speed in the first place. Unless barrier jackets weigh a ton, and not the couple of ounces I expect Fates Shin Sonic form to weigh.

edited 21st Apr '15 7:11:15 PM by Plund3r

You sayin' that Fate Testarossa is incapable of doing both at the same time?

edited 21st Apr '15 7:12:25 PM by EvaUnit01

I'm not sure I completely understand the logic in less clothes = more speed in the 1st place.

... it's not supposed to be about logic...

She's fast enough to do both in half the time it would take any other character. Unfortunately, that doesn't lead well to viewers actually seeing either side (unless maybe if they freeze-frame on a high-quality video), but there you go.

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Really, it's pretty much the same kind of logic that says Fate could move three times faster if she wore a red leotard instead of a black one.

She did wear a thong in the 1st season. If only she wore that in Strikers...

@Eva: Maybe Fate just needs a color swap then. Give her the popular colors of the Testarossa.

edited 21st Apr '15 7:18:14 PM by Plund3r