When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

<Good!>

What do you think, everyone?

Did you dress up as a pirate for that?

Good thinking about the Beatrice bit. And no, there's no Battler/Jessica romance here.

I'm aware of that now, but honestly, I liked the snarking dynamic between Battler and Jessica that took place in the very first scene.

Finished Episode 5.

I was admittedly hoping for a bit more explanation...it seemed like a lot of this Episode was involved in arguing about things that were already settled (such as whether Kinzo was dead or not). And I thought it a little strange that the final confrontation was about one mystery subject versus other potential ones, not mystery vs. fantasy explainations as the earlier ones were. (Of course, this could be explained by Beatrice and Battler being sidelined, but still.) That being said, the very end seems quite promising...I am looking forward to seeing what Battler does as the Game Master in the next iteration, and the revelation that even Battler's points of view were subjective opens up new possibilities. My hope is that we finally end up getting somewhere!

One question: Isn't Battler the same age as Jessica? Then how could he be the baby from 19 years ago? (It's quite possible he isn't, but I'd like some proof for that one way or another.

And on an unrelated note, I'll be on vacation for the next couple of weeks, so don't expect any posts during that time. Looking forward to finishing the mystery when I get back!

Battler's POV was only in doubt when he wasn't the detective.

Also, I seem to recall that the order of the cousins is George, Battler, Jessica, Maria, Ange. Battler's age does more or less match up.

edited 14th Jun '12 3:15:00 PM by Arha

Well, the explanation of EP 5 that i believe is fake murders.

There is no "must be a real murder" rule in Knox Decalogue. Therefore, it's possible for ALL of the victims to be playing dead. Battler made up this plan in order to force Natsuhi into confessing that Kinzo is dead. (he was on the phone as "that man" too. PS 3 novels support this by giving him Battler's voice) He was expecting her to admit it, thus defeating Erika's theory and removing the heritage problem by dividing the gold equally(he doesn't care about it that much). But it didn't work. Natsuhi obsessively held on to just that one lie, making Erika's theory unstoppable. That's why he had to confess. With that, magical scene of him suggesting himself as culprit makes sense. Oh, and why they're actually dead in the end... well. There is a bomb. Either it was forgotten about, or someone actually set it off, maybe Natsuhi herself out of sheer madness. With that, it makes the "Natsuhi as culprit is impossible to deny" make sense, even though a gigantic hole exists in that theory.

edited 15th Jun '12 5:30:54 AM by Luminosity

Edit your post dude, colored text negates spoilers. But I agree with most of your theory.

Luminosity: One potential problem with your theory: I'm pretty sure that Jessica was in on covering up Kinzo's death - I don't think she'd've gone alone with Battler's hoax if that was the goal. (Of course, she might not have known that...)

EP 5 is probably mostly like that, except that I think it's more that Battler's pretending to be the man from 19 years ago in order to cover up Shkannon. It's hard to say what really goes on behind the scenes of Ep5, since so little info or reliable perspective is given. It's almost a given that the first twilight victims were all faking. And motive to trap Natsuhi is probably likely a part of it. Jessica probably either went along with it because either she was mad about finding out Kinzo was really dead, or she might've been under the mistaken impression that it was all just a harmless prank.

Of course, there's a lot of things that don't quite sit right with EP 5, so eh.

I don't think Jessica was in covering Kinzo's death. She's not exactly a person that can lie convincingly. I think Battler told her about equal dividing of the gold, and she agreed, cuz THAT much gold would solve her parents's problems anyway. And she was probably mad on her lying parents.

Erika(with said reliable perspective) sees Shannon and Kanon in one place. While i do think this is evidence against Shkanon period, you do have to accept that at least in EP 5, things are different. It IS a given that they were faking. Conflicting red truths, Erika was never given a chance to examine them properly, and the only one to describe wounds is Battler. While usually this would be enough, here, it's not.

Did the numbers on my probability theory. This assumes that Oroboro's theory that the 4 episodes are akin to Yasu's creepy fan fictions and thus have no weight on what really happened on the original incident. It is also based on the idea that through the game boards, we are actually being given hints on HOW to solve the original incident. Also this:

A culprit in a murder mystery is going to live longer than many innocents.

These numbers are in 3 groups. The score is an average of the character's mortality point. A score of 4 or less suggests that X person is most certainly innocent as they more often died earlier. Based on supposed twilight number with one exception (in episode 2 since I have reason to suspect two people died earlier than when Battler found the bodies would have you believe). These numbers should be pretty close, except I have doubts about one of them.

Group 1: Siblings/ Spouses:

Average: 3.46

Krauss: 3.25-3.5 Natsui: 4.25 Eva: 3.25-3.5 Hideyoshi: 2.5 Rudolfo: 1.75 Kyrie: 2.75-3 Rosa: 5.75

Conclusions: Rosa is the highest by a long shot (borderline high outlier), thus she is the most likely person in group 1 to be a guilty party in the original incident.

Group 2: Cousins.

Average: 7.69

Battler: 10 (Known to be innocent) Jessica: 5.75-6 George: 6.5-8. This one I have concerns about since I'm having difficulty remembering exactly when he truly died in episode 4. This number is actually a low ball estimate and could be potentially much higher. This number assumes he was the 3rd twilight (memory could easily be wrong). Maria: 8

Conclusion: Very difficult to interpret since the cousins as a whole last longer. If my conclusion about group 1 is correct, then Maria has an alibi for her number (protection).

Group 3: Servents.

Average: 4.33

Genji: 4.5 Gohda: 2.5-4.25 Kurasawa: 3-4.75 Dr. Nanjo: 6.75-7 (I believe he and the person above actually died earlier than when their bodies were found in episode 2. The demon Kanon narrative may have foreshadowed this to be the case. The wounds are identical to that narrative.) Shannon: 3.25-3.5 Kanon: 2.5-2.75

Conclusion: Wow. Even if the Shkannon theory is true, these numbers actually SUPPORT the notion that Shkannon is innocent in the original incident assuming that the Shkannon's creepy fan fiction giving clues on how to solve the original incident theory is plausible. Based on these numbers, the most likely person to have been involved in the incident somehow is Dr. Nanjo.

edited 29th Jun '12 9:53:41 AM by magnum12

The problem with trying to guess using survival rates is that it ignores the possibility of faking ones death, whether with a body double or a carefully crafted lie, and the possibility of suicide or delayed deaths. The final puzzle in EP 3 could pretty much only happen if one of the earlier victims wasn't really dead.

Furthermore, EP 4 is an unreliable data-set, as we only have 2 points of reliable perspective. Battler sees everyone alive, then the next day he finds everyone's corpses. There's no proof or indication that anyone was killed in any particular order, except for the fantasy narrative, which is shown to be already somewhat false. (Jessica and George's corpses are found in places that don't match up with the fantasy narrative.)

edited 21st Jun '12 6:00:29 PM by Oroboro

I see your points and in some ways they are valid arguments. However, there are some things I would like to point out.

1. My numbers actually do take orders of murders being a bit different from when the bodies are found from Battler's perspective AND delayed death in account. If the numbers were based purely on when the bodies were found, the numbers for Kurasawa and Dr. Nanjo would be 0.75 points higher (I believe they were actually murdered BEFORE the Gohda, George, Shannon cluster in episode 2). I also believe that George died after Shannon in both episodes 2 and 3 via bleed out (the position of the wounds makes instant death highly unlikely). George's numbers would be a little lower if I didn't take delayed deaths in episodes 2 and 3 into account.

2. Not taking fake death (using supposed twilight numbers) into account was done on purpose for a reason. Each piece of the puzzle (the game boards) by themselves means nothing in regards to what really happened in the original incident. If taken together, i.e by looking at the threads of commonality between the boards, we can get a bigger picture as to what really happened. If one focuses too much on the individual game's solution, it becomes akin to missing out on the forest by spending too much time looking at the trees. The fake deaths are the individual game solutions.

3. I believe we have enough clues in episode 4 to get a reasonably close idea as to a reasonable order of when the attacks took place (attack does NOT always equal death as I have explained earlier in this post). It all depends on if the way I've been interpreting the fantasy perspective in episode 4 is correct.

Interpreting the magical perspective is much like how to use D34 in Higurashi. Amidst the web of lies is an important kernel of truth.

What I mean by D34 is how it is an important clue as to the cycles of death and madness: a parasite that causes mental illness. However, it is buried with a whole bunch of lies and misdirection.

How does this relate to the magical perspective? If I am interpreting this correctly, then there are two kernels of truth behind these scenes. Everything else is a lie.

a. The nature of the wounds, i.e. the type of weapon responsible for the deaths (slashing, strangled, gunshot, etc. b. The order of the "clusters of attacks". I believe this kernel of truth is foreshadowed with the "Demon Kanon" scenario in episode 2 that correctly diagnoses the cause of death for Kurasawa and Dr. Nanjo (slashing weapon to the neck) and very likely correctly describes how they actually died before Gohda, George, and Shannon.

These rules have been very consistent throughout the series so I don't have reason to doubt that this is true. Using the wording "clusters of attacks" also takes delayed death into account, supporting the notion that the order which Battler finds the bodies isn't the actual order of the murders, which is a flaw of the perspective.

How is the location of Jessica and George's bodies being different from what happened in the magical perspective in episode 4 explained by all of this? Simple really. Its a similar trick to the one used with the "Demon Kanon" scenario in episode 2. The cluster of attacks, the nature of the injuries, and most likely the order of this cluster is correct. It is the position of the bodies and Kanon having a wrist mounted light saber in the magical perspective that is the lie. This brings me to a blue truth.

The orders of the "clusters of attacks" in episode 4 is within reason mostly correct.

However, as said in the rebuttal (and I agree with the logic), it is impossible to know exactly when George dies. That is why I intentionally low-balled his number in episode 4. Depending on what the actual casualty number is, since the total is divided by four, George's number could be anywhere from spot on to a full 1.5 points HIGHER, which drops the numbers of every kill after Jessica but before Rosa, Battler, and Maria. by 0.25 points. There is also the possibility that Kurasawa and Gohda died in a cluster before the others, therefore, the numbers of those two people I have now are the absolute highest numbers they can have. Their number could range from spot on to up to 1.75 points LOWER.

As a result of this discussion, I shall edit the numbers of three people to add in the possibilities produced by the rebuttal. I'm sure the results will be interesting.

Edit: The number ranges seemed to have no effect in the net likelihood of innocence in group 1. Those who were most likely innocent under the probability theory were still in that category. The numbers for the most likely guilty party in this group was unaffected.

In group 2, the person who I suspect the most of being guilty in the original incident had his numbers potentially surge. Unlike the others with high numbers, I believe this person does not have a good alibi for the numbers and in fact as seen in the sacrifice test a possible motive for it all. The numbers for everyone else were pretty much unchanged.

In group 3, I saw two people who I believe to be completely innocent in the original incident stay in that group, and two people have their mortality number have a potential surge downwards, from a bit suspicious into the "completely innocent" range.

Edit Again: Seems my posistioning of Dr. Nanjo in episode 4 was wrong. Considerably later than I thought. That bumps his score 1-1.25 points. Also, there are some more holes regarding episode 4. Seems this episode plays around with the rule I had been using. Rosa is shown to have been shot in the 1st twilight, which while it does accurately portray HOW she died, wrongly shows WHEN. Similar example with George. The nature of the wound is correct, however, both the timing and the posistion of the wound are false. However, I believe this actually foreshadows the notion that George and Rosa's deaths are actually later than we are told to believe.

Regarding Luminosity's comment.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/umineko_no_naku_koro_ni_chiru_episode_5_end_of_the_golden_witch/c006/6.html

This link covered in spoilers pretty much confirms the comment. It also comes with the appropiate red truth chain from Lambdadelta saying something along the lines of There were always 17 people in the previous games, Erika makes the total 18. She's clearly in the same room as all the other 17 people including Shannon and Kanon.

edited 29th Jun '12 10:02:43 AM by magnum12

I think I may have a motive for Rosa being the culprit in the original incident. Caution: A nearby tissue box might be recommended.

Rosa's life.....lacks love.

Due to her screwed up life, Rosa is mentally unstable. At best she has Split Personallity Disorder. At worst, she's full blown bat *beep* insane.

Contrary to common misconception, love is NOT restrictied to only "romantic love"

Rosa is the most screwed up person in that whole mess of a Big, Screwed-Up Family. She hates herself because she considers herself a murderer over the death of Beatrice II. She considers herself unworthy of her father's love due to it. Frequently bullied by her elder siblings. Her husband left her when she was pregnant with Maria. She has difficulty finding and maintaining a boyfriend (Maria is blamed for this due to her belief that "No man wants a woman with a child made by another man".)

How does this relate to the murders. Simple, Rosa's objective in the mass murder is the ressurrection of "Beatrice". In her delusional, emotionally messed up state of mind, if she can enact the witch epitaph literately through a chain of deaths that appear to be magical, then she can regain all that was lost (namely the love that is gone from her life). As such, everyone must die, including herself. To replicate the epitaph, Rosa must also play by its rules. (Remember that "Beatrice plays fair" and is quite the stickler for the rules of the game as shown in depictions in episode 6.) If someone solves the epitaph, then bound by its rules, Rosa must stop.

Does this fit with the love narrative. IMO, absolutely, in a dark, twisted way it does. In a way, I believe Rosa's motive makes her Not So Different from "Yasu". In many ways, Rosa is a misguided, sad, lonely woman who just wants to be loved and understood. However, she's also just as equally delusional and unbalanced. How does the bomb fit into all of this.

The bomb is the core component in the formation of "the cat box". It is needed in order to complete the illusion of the magical mass murder.

Due to both the destructive power and being able to be detonated via remote or by timer, I believe that the most likely candidate for the explosive used is C4.

Also, what I think the solution to the fake deaths is.

Drugs are involved.

Drugs designed to fake death are infact allowed under Knox's 4th. Erika in fact says so in episode 6. The method of attack for drugs is chemical in nature, making it more closely related to poison than complex scientific device. In fact, we are given valid reason to suspect poison as a potential murder weapon in episode 4 with the nature of Maria's death.

I don't really know where to put these, but I feel like I have to put them somewhere. If they go somewhere else, please point me to there. These are my musings after reading EP 8, so pretty massive spoilers. Just in case, I'll spoiler tag the spoilery areas: I finished reading Twilight (of the Golden Witch) last night, and I finally took a look back at the entire stretch of Umineko, way back when I first saw the anime back in 2009 (dear Jesus, has it really been that long). Here I am almost three years since I first was exposed to Umineko—two and a half since I began reading the visual novels—and I come to ask myself: did I enjoy it? Obviously I must have to have read the entire series; the length of this series is not for the faint of heart. However, I cannot deny that I feel a little... empty after hearing Byakumu no Mayu play one last time. After rereading some of my favorite scenes from the series, and remembering how confused I used to be about certain parts of the narration in the Question Arcs, I feel like I understand why now.

All that time, I thought I was supposed to find out the truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima in 1986, however EP 8 goes to great lengths to show that figuring out the Single Truth is pointless; what purpose does it really serve? Wasn't this the point of Umineko? Then I realized: the point of Umineko was to solve what happened on Beato's gameboard, and what that meant. For example: already by EP 2's climax, Ryukishi was hinting that explaining the mystery with human methods was only part of it, much like how everyone who read Kinzo's epitaph subconsciously knew that the person who solved it would inherit the gold and headship. We also knew subconsciously that we had to solve the three questions: whodunnit, howdunnit, and whydunnit? After all, human methods only cover one of those facets: probably the most impersonal facet of a mystery in regards to the culprit. Any how, after rereading certain scenes in context of the series as a whole, I absolved that the point of Umineko is to figure out those three in regards to Beato's game; Beato's game, which was an incident that transpired in a vacuum, and not the real world. I then understood why the empty feeling occurred: I had felt tricked, even though, retrospectively, everything sort of coalesces.

The biggest gripe I have about this series is that I wish the distinction between the significance of Beato's gameboard and the significance of Prime could have been made more pronounced. Technically, we'd known since EP 3's Hidden Tea Party that the two aren't mutually exclusive events, but I feel like Prime's unimportance should have been accentuated earlier in the story than the last novel. Other than that, I'm very satisfied with this series, and I love the ride taken to arrive at the end, even if the end was a little disquieting. I can't wait to hear "when something else cries."

edited 30th Jun '12 3:29:31 PM by Solachinx

That's generally a common complaint in regards to the ending of Umineko, but I'm glad you were able to come to terms with it in a way fits you.

Personally, it took awhile before it all "clicked" for me, but I ended up very satisfying. Admittedly, there's a lot of places where Ryukushi07 could've done better. It's not an excuse, but I think it helps to understand that even though he clearly had most everything planned from the beginning, a part of it was written as he went along, even taking feedback and peoples responses to the mystery on popular message boards.

For instance After Episode 2, Ryukushi07 saw that a lot of people were giving up entirely, because after all, what's the point in mystery where there's laser blades and demons everywhere? So he through out the original draft for EP 3 and added the character's of Virgillia and Ronove to act as "guides" for Battler, and explain that crucial "catbox" analogy. EP 8 as well, comes off a little bitter towards people who weren't happy with the reveal in EP 7.

Still, no matter its faults, Umineko holds a special place in my heart, the soundtrack holds a special place on my harddrive, and I'm eagerly looking forwards to Ryukushi07's next project, Rose Guns Days

edited 30th Jun '12 2:02:16 PM by Oroboro

I'm glad you made sense of it too, and that you still hold Umineko in such good regard; I remember EP 8 causing a fair few fans to disregard the entire series. I as well eagerly await the release of Guns Rose Days.

Ah, yes, I remember reading the interview where Ryukishi discussed his original plans for EP 3, and how initially it was Land. To be honest, after reading about Land, I kinda want to see it made. But, since he said that elements of Land had been implemented into other Episodes, I guess there'd be little point to it being released, except as maybe a Hane 2.

I figure that the death of BT a few months (?) before EP 5's release might also have something to do with the series beginning to lose some focus and coherency. Even still, though, I think Umineko is one of the best visual novels—nay, novels in general that I have read in a while, flaws and all. I also like two aspects of the presentation of its mystery: the Groundhog Mystery, first introduced in Higurashi, and the use of Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy to convey certain events and relationships. Though it deviates from the normal methods used by fair-play whodunnits, I feel like it's a lot more interesting, even if it's more frustrating as well.

By the way, which culprit theory do you support? Yasu was planning murder or she was planning a game? Since I recall you supporting Yasu as the culprit.

edited 30th Jun '12 3:53:51 PM by Solachinx

I think Yasu is the culprit on the gameboards, but my theory in regards to Prime is that she planned a murder mystery game, but everything went horribly wrong.

A part of me also wants to believe the Yasu=Ikkuko theory, which has a decent amount of evidence supporting it, but kind of gets some creepy undertones if you think about too hard.

I don't concern myself too much with what happened in the real event, but if I had to say I'd put Kyrie and Rudolf as the killers. A piece cannot act out of character, so it is in them to do all that. Really, after maybe Episode 4 or so I was looking for evidence to confirm whether the fantasy characters were actually real.

As per my thoughts on the motive for Dr. Nanjo being a guilty party (accomplice) in Prime.

Dr. Nanjo is motivated by money. Greed is NOT a major factor, as late episode 3 seems to imply.

To summarize: Dr. Nanjo needs a vast sum of money, likely concerning some major operation or something regarding his grand child. I can actually explain the inconsistency with dialogue in episode 4. It fits the love narrative because of the desire to save one's descendants.

Dr. Nanjo's son is lying to Angi about collecting the money in episode 4. This is most likely because he doesn't want to openly admit to getting his hands on "dirty money".

As for George, who I strongly suspect is guilty on Prime. A motive.

George shows the trademark warning signs of being a Yandere, namely the possessive sub-type.

This theory is backed up by his actions in episode 4 and his confession in episode 6. By the time 1986 rolls around, the seeds of darkness have already been fully sown in his heart. His willingness to destroy anything and anyone that gets in the way of his love is a trademark Yandere trait and a major red flag of the malice within him.

Contrary to popular belief, the trademark sin of a Yandere is Envy, NOT Lust.

My narrative is a very dark, twisted, tragic take on the "love narrative". I think it merges the mystery and psychological horror/ High Octane Night Mare Fuel in a way that truly represents When They Cry.

Alas, I grow a bit bored of the discussion and would like to change the topic a bit into something a bit more interactive.

Name your five best kills/deaths in When They Cry and why. Dark topic yes, but since the horror is intrinsic to the series, it's worth discussing. It could be the horror of the act, a personal impact, or some other thing that makes it fit into the psychological horror of When They Cry. Here's mine.

1. Satako (Eye Opening Chapter): Dear God what to say about this one. It became the defining moment for Shion despite her being sane in every other arc afterwards due to the sheer horror and depravity of it all. Also the most extreme case of just how far a character truly falls (compare the psycho personality to their base line personalities and see what I mean.) It really takes something special to be the nastiest moment in a story arc infamous for being horrific, this by When They Cry standards. Also gotta respect Satako's defiance in all of this. It takes some serious resolve to be like that in the face of certain agonizing death.

2. First Twilight, Episode 1: This deserves mention as a warning of what to expect from the rest of Umineko. I must admit, this scene made my stomach cringe a bit in nausea. I've seen some pretty gruesome things and been through some pretty traumatic experiences in my life (born witness to some exceptionally foul teratomas plus some other things I don't wanna mention), so it takes something truly repulsive to freak me out. This murder managed to do just that, so that's why its so high on my list.

3. Maria's Revenge. Episode 4: I like the narrative aspect to this. I had a feeling, given this series, that there was going to be some MASSIVE build up, foreshadowing, etc to her eventually snapping spectacullary at some point. That build up really paid off IMO with one of the most cringe worthy, sadistic moments of the series.

4. Second Twilight, Episode 3: I like this one for a different reason than the other ones. Namely that the overly childish approach taken made this one darkly funny, but to the point whether I didn't know if I should be laughing or horrified. In a way, it's like "Meet The Pyro".

5. The many deaths of Teppai Hojo: Okay, I'm cheating on this one, but I think it these moments are a fine example of Ass Hole Victim in action. It nicely shows that sense of Moral Myopia that comes from a utter bastard getting theirs in a "punishment fits the crime" sort of way. Plus, I was able to come up with some pretty snarky comments I could use in the future if I ever go about doing an MST of When They Cry, such as "It's Goofy Time." (Google it up, preferably with images.)

That's how I view the culprit too. That's also how I like to view Hachijo, even if there are creepy overtones that she may have caused the amnesia and is controlling his life, essentially. Even still, I like to think she is Sayo because I'm a romantic like that I suppose.

I would like to think that Rudolf and Kyrie accidentally became trigger-happy in the Secret VIP room and that someone's corpse accidentally turned the bomb on, instead of them learning about the bomb and becoming super bastards. However, there's little evidence to support this. Oh well. Though I don't really care too much about that either.

Five best kills in WTC.... for Higu, I watched the anime, so know that I'm basing Higu stuff off of that. No particular order, since I don't remember too much of Higu (it's been about 4-5 years since I've seen the anime) SPOILERS FOR THE END OF HIGU at least, since I don't want to spoilertag everything.

1) Takano's Takedown of Rika and Friends at the end of Mingoroshi-hen. I thought that it was really heart wrenching to see this play out. After an arc of ****ing up Tepei's life in a way that doesn't involve murder, and everyone slowly building up the belief that this will be the last arc, having Takano come along and pulling the rug out from under our heroes.... it killed me. And the scene where the ghosts of Rika's friends try to comfort her before death also brought some tears to my eyes. I always found the blending of the spirit and physical worlds to be heartwrenching in some way or another. Maybe this scene is why.

2) The double homicide between Jessica and George in EP 4. Admittedly, this is one of the few times I liked George (not that I dislike him, really), and felt like I was rooting for his cause. I had grown attached to Jessica from E Ps 1 and 3, so I was rooting for her as well. Then to have both of them taken out in such a dirty and unforeseeable way shocked me a fair bit. I felt bad for George for once, which is more I felt for him than in the rest of the series.

3) Shion's rampage in Watanagashi-hen and Maaeakashi-hen. It really does go far to show exactly how screwed up this girl became due to Satoshi disappearing. Shion even goes as far to kill Satoko of all people before promptly peeing/ejaculating on herself. Although these tragic elements are present in Watanagshi-hen if you learn the truth, they are dialed up to 12 in Meakashi-hen.

4) Maria goes to town on Rosa. After reading more of the series, I eventually realized that Rosa is a lot more developed than is presented in E Ps 1-4. However, at the time, I didn't like this woman at all. I thought that she was a horrible person, and I wanted justice. How much more delicious was that justice served by the victim themself?

5) The banquet in Turn. This was the first truly gross/gory scene in When They Cry to really get to me (OK, clawing throats out with fingers was the first, but this one affected me so much more), which speaks volumes in that gore usually doesn't affect me in any particular way in regards to media, esp. in literature. It's more the idea that someone would go to the lengths of not only killing six people, but also cutting them open and tearing out their guts and placing candies in there. It......unnerved me.

Thanks for this, really. I looked through my manga for bullet three, and I became interested in Higu again. I need to pick up the rest of the manga now.

edited 30th Jun '12 10:18:47 PM by Solachinx

And I'm back.

Starting Episode 6. Somehow, however, my enthusiasm for the series seems to have flagged a bit. It reminds me of when I was watching Lost: I got really into the first season with its balance of mysterious goings-on and strong character development, but the more that later seasons focused on the plot twists above everything else (without resolving much), the more I lost interest. Same thing with Umineko: I've already run into yet another supernatural entity that may or may not exist, and I'm missing the times when it was about 18 people on an island and possibly Beatrice.

I never finished Lost: I'll probably make my way through Umineko, at least for the time being, if nothing else to resolve the time sink it has become. Still, I'm hoping things pick up soon.

I started with the anime on Higurashi as well. I had actually solved most of the mysteries regarding the series by the Atonement chapter. I'd say it wasn't nesseccarily Satoshi's disappearance in of itself that drove her insane, rather it was the actions of Onryu that set her down that dark path.

The manga is better. I strongly recommend it.

Funny you should mention the first Twilight of Episode 2, for that along with Rika giving Shion the metaphorical "bird" were tied for my honorable mentions.

edited 1st Jul '12 12:00:49 AM by magnum12

I got that way with Umineko as well, either out of losing interest or having other school related things to do, so I read at my own leisure. Sometimes I took breaks months long between reading sessions, like E Ps 3 and 6, sometimes I read the novel over the course of two days, like E Ps 4 and 6. Overall, it took from about October of 2009 until June 2012 to read the entire thing for me, and I felt like that was a good pace, relative to its release schedule. If you get bored, you could drop it and return at another point.

Oh yeah, the manga is way better. I don't have to have read the VN to know the anime was extremely rushed, and that the manga is better at pacing (the first arc could have had a few more chapters IMO). My other contender one of the best killing scenes was mighty Keiichi striking out in the Onikakushi-hen.

edited 1st Jul '12 5:57:11 AM by Solachinx

The last 4 arcs are significantly different in tone than the first 4. I loved 'em, but I'm also a huge fan of Erika/Dlanor/Lambda/Bern.

It also sounds kind of like you've lost the thread of the mystery. It's understandable. There's a lot of fantasy to lose it in. I was totally clueless my first read through. But maybe it'd spark your interest some more of you looked backwards, and reexamined a lot of the facts with a new perspective. Consider how Knox's Decalogue fits into things. How Dlanor explained it was supposed to work. And just what was Beatrice trying to tell Battler, that he managed to find out at the end of EP 5?

For reference, a handy list of Red Truths can be found here. [1] Just remember not to scroll down past stuff you haven't read.

Also EP 6 starts out really slowly. Good luck!

As for favorite deaths, it may not count since it wasn't quite shown, but Maria's and Rosa's last stand at the end of EP 2 is one of my favorite moments in the whole series.

edited 1st Jul '12 7:36:16 AM by Oroboro