When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

I can still get on the internet. I just won't have my computer which means I won't have the game. And the other computer is a Mac so can't put it on there. I think.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:30:20 PM by Arha

Actually you can. There is a Mac version of the patch, so I assume the game work on the Mac. If you have to change the patch you will likely lose your progress, but luckily you can just unlock Ep7 and fastfoward from there (or you could 'unlock' Ep8 and use the chose scenario feature).

I am not totally sure, however. I am pretty sure said 'Mac patch' won't work, as you don't have an official version of the game. There is the installer-free patch (which works with a pirated game), but I am unsure if it works in a Mac (it should, since they don't said it don't, but I can't test myself).

edited 18th Aug '11 11:42:36 PM by Heatth

Mmm, I'll pass. It's not my computer that I'll be using so I probably won't get on it much and I definitely don't want to install stuff on it.

I'm pretty sure I keep meaning to say this but never do (so forgive me if I've said it like ten times without remembering) but I think I like Higurashi more. It was kind of intriguing to piece together the plot of the story awhile back and note foreshadowing and whatnot. Also, it bugs me that the characters I want to see tend to get overshadowed and I haven't gotten to see any Battler/Beatrice interactions in ages. Overall, though, I think the story is inferior as are the majority of the characters. Though obviously still entertaining.

edited 18th Aug '11 11:47:13 PM by Arha

I understand that. My first thought when finishing Higurashi's first Chapter was "Wow, this is even better then Umineko's first Episode!". I overall also think Higurashi has a more intriguing 'mystery'. I am not entirely sure, since I got spoiled about most of the key points (though not the details, which allowed me to keep interested). The over story of Higurashi seems more 'complete', probably because it has a less restrict setting.

I don't quite agree about the characters. Umineko suffer from Loads And Loads Of Characters, which somewhat weaken them, but they rotate enough so I could actually get attached to most of them, with feel exceptions (poor Nanjo). Heck, even tough Gohda only does stuff at Ep2, this was enough for me to like him (it got to fully show his simple but well constructed personality). The Magical characters usually only shine during their first appearance (except for the major ones), but that alone was enough for me to find most of them quite awesome.

In the end, however, I can't really compare them. Not only they are completely different stories, I also enjoyed them in a very different way. I mostly Archive Binged Higurashi but, for Umineko, I have to wait to get Ep6 and 7 (and now 8). This allowed me to try to figure out the mystery and lurk around the fandom absorbing theories and creating my owns. This is a very different type of enjoyment I couldn't get with Higurashi.

(technically I have to wait a month for each Chapter of Higurashi Kai, but it is not the same thing as I not only already knew the key points but also couldn't discuss it around, as everyone had seem the anime already).

PS:I have to say Umineko's soundtrack is much superior to Higurashi's, though. It was the first time I actually paid attention on the background music, because of how awesome it is (it makes the 'reasoning battles seems dynamic). Higurashi Kai has some great tacks too, but not as much as Umineko.

edited 19th Aug '11 12:07:09 AM by Heatth

I feel that Umineko doesn't do a good enough job of fleshing out the characters it presents. And even having read Negima and FSN I feel that there are just too many. Okay, Ronove and Virgilia can be awesome but... They're hardly ever around. Even the main heroine (maybe) doesn't get to do anything for the most part after the first half of the story. Okay, okay, I've only completed up to episode 6, but isn't it about time to see the two main characters actually interacting together?

Also, I liked learning about the characters bit by bit in Higurashi and the way it seemed kind of cyclical. Like with Mion: First she's just the pervert friend who seems to have a crush on the main character, then she turns out to be villainous. And then even more villainous, and her family becames this overarching terror figure. But then it's peeled back to having her really be one of the nicest and almost certainly the most trustworthy members in the entire story and how she appeared in the beginning all along.

Overall, what I think I like most about the two stories is all the Unreliable Narrator and Unreliable Expositor going around. While the mysteries are fun to solve (and I think I did a good job working out both of them) what really sets them apart is how little assurance you have that things are what they seem.

Yeah, I'll give the battle of soundtracks to Umineko, though. Usan no Kaori, Happiness of Marionette and a few others like Maria Utanasi that I haven't mentioned are all rather good tracks.

edited 19th Aug '11 12:16:33 AM by Arha

Which main heroine you are talking about? Shannon? She is not exactly a 'heroine'. This title goes to Beatrice (who, obviously, was quite present in the first half).

I think the magical side is the best side at handling characters, actually. Yeah, Ronove And Virgilia are awesome, but they are not important. We see them being awesome in their introduction, but in Ep5 and latter they have to open space for Erika and Dlanor (as well as Bern and Lambda, whoare now part of the main story) to shine. They still keep appearing and being awesome for a few scenes, which I think it is enough (it is not like Assassin was all that present in FSN, even though he is awesome as well).

I agree the Higurashi characters are more 'cyclical' then Umineko's. But it is not like the latter are static either. With the exception of the elder servants and Hideyoshi, every character showed their true colors through the games, which are not quite the same as it was when they first appear. Since they are many, it is usually one big change, instead of many like in Higurashi, but still relevant.

I think Umineko got a very good deal giving assurance to telling apart what is 'real' and what is not. The red is truth, of course, but the notion that 'all Battler sees, and only what he sees, is gospel truth' is also very important and help you to tell apart the 'real' from 'fantasy'. It is not like the 'fantasy' and 'fake' scenes are completely bullshit either, anyway. Speaking on that, unlike you, I got spoiled about all the Unreliable Narrator thing (and how Battler avert that). This was more or less the only thing I got spoiled and I wonder now if it was for the best.

"Maria Utanasi"? Which one is that again?

edited 19th Aug '11 12:39:30 AM by Heatth

I was referring to Beatrice. I still haven't seen troll Beatrice and Battler interacting except the very end of episode 6, which hardly counts. And so far for the second half of the story she's barely been present at all. I mean, obviously I can't be sure of it yet, but I imagine if she appears in this episode it won't be until the end.

The difference with how FSN and Umineko handled the masses of characters is dividing them all up by importance. Assassin is cool but doesn't matter, so he shows up for about three fights. That's all he needs. Umineko seems to be trying to juggle everyone evenly apart from the minor servants, who get even less time. I felt Higurashi handled screen time a lot better. For example, we really heard all we needed to about Satoko in Tatarigoroshi or Minagoroshi. Natsuhi? She shows up so bad things can happen to her. Rosa shows up to be the BEST MOTHER EVER. Mostly. And it happens over and over.

Maria Utanasi? I couldn't find it on youtube. It's in the BGM tracks. I can't offhand recall in what scenes it tends to play, so I don't think it's anyones leitmotif.

Ah, I read "for the most part before the first half", which got me confused.

Yeah, I guess you are right here. But the main point of Chiru is, apparently, the absence of Beatrice, not her presence. The story would be much different if she was there. I assume she will back to be fully relevant at Ep8.

I don't see how Umineko makes everyone important. Well, not in the magic scenes, at last, which is where your example came from (Ronove and Virgilia are cool, but not much relevant other then occasional mentoring). This is a flaw of the human side, I agree. At the same time I think it is an strength. We got tons of characters, but fortunately Ryuukishi avoided making most of them flat. It is not totally fair to compare to Higurashi, because Higurahsi has a lot less characters. Natsuhi shows mostly so bad things happen to her. Rosa is the BEST MOM EVER, but also has a surprisingly hidden clever side and clearly genuinely loves Maria (although probably hate the kid almost as much).

I couldn't find in you tube either, which is why I asked. Is it from Chiru or the first game? If from Chiru, which folder it is?

PS:Oh, found it on the first Umineko BMG folder. The actual name is Happy Maria and, yeah, I agree it is an awesome song (the vocal version is also great). We couldn't find because both the music Box and You Tube use the name 'Happy Maria' for it, naturally. No idea why the file is called maria_utanasi_mx.ogg.

This song is a Memetic Mutation generator, due to its nonsensical Engrish lyrics. ('Magical Gohda Chef' comes from there)

edited 19th Aug '11 12:54:09 AM by Heatth

Question arcs folder, track below Happines of Marionette is happy_maria_uta_m which is the voiced version of the song.

And what I meant wasn't that Umineko made everyone important, but that for the human side it tries showing everyone about equally when there's not equal amounts to say about them. Also, how is it unfair to compare it to Higurashi when one of the problems I have with Umineko is that it has too many characters in the first place? If it has too many characters and I don't think they juggle them well enough, what I would have done is, for example, give less time to Natsuhi even though I do like her because a lot of her scenes are the same. Use this to expand more upon the cousins, who really seem to be deserving of more of the focus. Cut down on some of Rosa being a bitch, show us more of Kanon and Shannon... though honestly they probably have more scenes than most and I don't particularly like them. Stuff like that.

The fantasy side handles it better, but then that just bugs me a little because for the most part they don't seem to exist. Only the meta character like Bernkastel and Lambdadelta seem to. And even that is questionable.

Edit: Oh, you found it.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:00:39 AM by Arha

Oh, I am not saying it is unfair you think Umineko has too many characters (I agree it is a flaw of the story). It is unfair to expect them to be as developed as Higurashi's (and most non-children of Higurashi's characters only got developed in the last Chapter, anyway).

I still don't agree the lesser characters screen time should have been toned down, however. I see what you are coming from, but I think if the adults time was even more lessened it would have greatly weakened their characters (which is not all that developed already). I guess I agree Rosa is a bit too over-represented. She is so because she is too much important part of Maria's character (like Shannon is important for George) but I guess it wasn't worked well. It is made worse by the fact she clearly is more then a shitty mother, but the bad mother is all we usually see (because it is the part that matter for Maria).

I agree about the fantasy side, which is why I insist that side "exist" as well. If it doesn't, then half of the story is pretty much pointless, which sucks. To counter that, I ensure to myself it still "exist" is some level, even if it doesn't for the purpose of the 'mystery'. And, anyway, after Ep6 the whole game board scenes existence are put in check. If I was to be too cynical then 90% of the stories are pure forgery.

Oh, apparently Ep8 will have Multiple Endings (so it will have choices somewhere). I am not sure, but I think it is divided between 'fantasy ending' and 'mystery ending', which would make me feel much better.

edited 19th Aug '11 1:13:00 AM by Heatth

What did you expect? Episode 7 is The Summation.

Well, it is not like he could have know that ahead of time.

Considering what Episode 6's ???? was, it was pretty obvious.

Oh, yeah. Have forgot. Which is weird, since just a few hours ago I said the same thing as well in other words. ^^;

Anyways, I have to disagree about the character handling. One thing to remember about Umineko is that a third of the cast gets killed off in the first bit of almost all episodes, and the killing off just continues. This helps focus development on the survivors, and keeps the large cast from getting too unwieldy, since you rarely see them all at once.

Also, there's nothing really wrong with support characters like Dr. Nanjo and Gohda. They're not super important, but that's OK, not every character needs to be.

My problem with Dr. Nanjo is how flat he end up being. I mean, Gohda s less relevant then the Goats, but he got a great scenes in Ep2 (and only Ep2), that make him more of a rounded character (if a simple one). Dr. Nanjo is there just because they needed a medic for the story.

The problem is not the supporting characters. The problem is how flat they are. Personally, I think only Dr. Nanjo and Genji really suffer from that. Kumasawa and Hideyoshi has no much to speak of either, but at last they have interesting personalities.

edited 19th Aug '11 2:08:03 AM by Heatth

Genji, at the very least, becomes very interesting in 7, if you ask me.

I agree. His bland personality worked for him, somehow. I guess I shouldn't complain on that front, at last.

PS:Arha, there is a reason there is such an effort to keep the human characters with a somewhat equal screen time: one of them is the culprit. To keep all of the mas viable options, it is only natural to make sure no one get too much to the side line.

edited 19th Aug '11 2:42:13 AM by Heatth

Well, flight was canceled today, but computer was already shipped. While I'm here I stil have a crappy old computer, though, but I think I'll take a break from Umineko. Reread Higurashi and read a few Discworld books, I think.

episode 7 needs more erika furudo

Every episode does, really.

Who's that? (trollkatsel.jpg)

@Arha,

I don't know the context but that seems to sucks. Hopefully you have already taken the new flight already.

@Commander Obvious,

Obvious statement is obvious. I really hope she "unkill" herself somehow for Ep8. It is not even that hard, really. The number of (physical) people in the island was of only 16, not 17, after all.

Nah, got another week before the rescheduled flight.

In the magic world, it seems that all you have to do is un-death yourself is to start thinking again.