When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

Burried to the neck? Or using some kind of mirror-trick?

Or should I use a dummy designed to look like me? The question being how to make the effect look convincing, seeing as I want the same When They Cry horror in the whole scenario.

Since this is based off the 1st twilight of the 3rd novel, that means I may or may not need a 6th link in the chain.

Any Puella Magi Madoka Magica fans got any ideas on what witch I should use, an appropiate fantasy solution and how to pull off the trick for the mystery solution based on said witch?

Edit: If the Charolette room effect proves too difficult to craft, I do have an alternate idea in which the fantasy solution is "Charolette the Dessert Witch mauled this person like a vicious animal". Hard part being how to design, then craft the mystery solution.

edited 10th Jun '14 5:33:55 PM by magnum12

Don't forget, some of Umineko's best closed rooms are not based on elaborate tricks at all, but simple lies.

Been writing my own mystery (fic) stuff lately, and the key really is all in the narrative framing.

edited 10th Jun '14 5:31:06 PM by Oroboro

#2548 Lyendith

I wouldn't deny that the Umineko characters are more multifaceted, but I would certainly disagree with the idea that they're more nuanced. There's just too much formula and narrative crutch in them, far more so than in Higurashi. Too much Freudian Excuse, too much "but they're really a loving parent on the inside," and so on...

Is it possible that you can find an alternate cause of death that would work the same narratively? A decapitation sounds as though it would be a massive pain in the behind if you want it to look good, but if it doesn't look good you're probably going to wreck the suspension of disbelief.

Can we read this story?

Link is in my sig, but also right here.

It uh, involves ponies though, so yeah. >_>

It's written for a more general audience as well, so I doubt much of the mystery can hold against a seasoned Umineko veteran.

Got an idea for an alternate solution. This one just might be simplistically brutal enough to work. Based on "Charolette mauled their victim".

Solution (Charolette Room): Traces of some compound resembling itching powder hidden as a clue. A careful search gives a vial with wording for a hallucinagenic drug. Proper examination of the "body" (this really depends on participant's ability to act) reveals an injection site on one arm and what appears to be blood (fake of course) on their finger nails. Victim clawed out own throat as the result of induced itching combined with hallucinations.

Ooh, Hinamizawa Syndrome. I approve.

Wouldn't be the first time I've read a fic whose parent work I don't know.

-a few hours later-

Pretty good. I like it. Still kind of general audience, though... you're not going to be able to keep it up much past the illusion reveal, I think. Will there be a trickier Round 2 to this?

edited 11th Jun '14 9:19:31 AM by Exetera

Thanks!

There's a third final story arc left to finish, but that's more about the ultimate resolution and climax rather than individually tricky puzzles.

I did have vague ideas for a sequel which would involve some minor standalone purple truth styled mysteries, which could be fun.

So, like most of us in here, I'm a happy reader of this here blog, which is replaying Umineko and adding all kinds of interesting Yasutrice annotations. As you probably know, I'm not the biggest Yasutrice fan in the world, but I still think the theory was intentionally included by the author and is important to understand in order to understand Umineko. So I'm not chiming in here to say "raagh, bad Yasutrice." I'm gonna chime in here because I think they missed a spot.

In their most recent updates they've been covering mid/late Episode 4, where Beatrice forces Battler to question his identity by revealing that he is not Ushiromiya Asumu's biological son. She argues that because Battler isn't Ushiromiya Asumu's biological son, he must therefore not be the real Ushiromiya Battler (who is the only one qualified to compete with her), and as a result Battler erases himself. They attribute this to Yasu's desire to give tit for tat, deny Battler's identity in the same way that she has been denied one. Which is probably true, but there's also something else going on there, a distinct undertone of self-denial that neither of them seems to recognize.

Yumetabibito (like me, the first time I played through the scene) points out why Battler not being Asumu's son doesn't mean much: Battler Ushiromiya has the right to compete because he's Kinzo's grandson. It doesn't matter whether or not he's Asumu's son; he could be the product of an illicit affair between Krauss and a mackerel for all we care, he just has to be Kinzo's grandson. (Or, rather, "a real Ushiromiya.") Which, of course, he is.

But it's wrong to say that it doesn't mean anything that Battler isn't actually Asumu's son. If Battler is the son of Ushiromiya Rudolf but not his then-wife Ushiromiya Asumu, it means that Battler is necessarily illegitimate.

And, of course, the qualification that Beatrice is looking for here is that Battler must be a real Ushiromiya.

So, basically, Yasu means that Battler is not a real Ushiromiya because he's illegitimate.

Yasu is saying this.

Fucking ouch.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:02:39 PM by Exetera

Is this an appropriate place to talk about your story? Because it's hit the point where I really want to theorize about it.

(Although the first closed room may give me a bit of trouble. I'd kinda been banking on the culprit being inside it. Hmm... How are you defining "culprit," in this case? Just as "the person who committed the murder?" Would someone who committed later murders, or was otherwise obviously on Team Evil, qualify for this if she didn't actually commit a murder in that shed? Or, to be more thorough, was there anyone, culprit or not, hiding in the shed?)

edited 30th Jun '14 7:03:00 PM by Exetera

Appropriate to discuss here? Technically probably not, but it's not like there's a lot going on in this thread these days anyway. Could always just shoot me a PM too, I guess.

Culprit as "Someone who commits murder" is simple enough though. I'm hesitant to go around making further red statements about closed rooms outside of the fic, though.

OK, I'll PM it. If it turns out anyone else is interested, I can repost it here.

edited 1st Jul '14 4:22:17 AM by Exetera

Interesting. Seems we have some information on Higurashi Hou.

One of the new characters the one with the wings on her head is named Tamura. She doesn't seem to get along well with Hanyuu ( called it). Seems to like rice offerings and like Hanyuu, her past was NOT happy. There's also a new girl called Une.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26475&page=15

Good news guys. The steam version comes out late 2014 and come with new sprites. Wow, they are made of win, even better than the PS 2 sprites.

Back to Hou: Tamura is a Shadow Archetype to Hanyuu. A god who through her traumas has become a cold, uncaring Knight Templar in contrast to Hanyuu being a motherly Messianic Archetype. Think Law vs Chaos conflict with Tamura being law and Hanyuu being chaos.

Edit: Seems there's a new data sheet out. With birthdays (the Sonozaki Twins are now 4/10) and blood types. Sonozaki Sisters, Tomitake, Ayane, and Rina are B, Keiichi, Teppei, Chie, Satako, Rena, Ooishi are O, Satoshi, Rika, Irie and Akasaka are A.

edited 9th Jul '14 11:12:43 PM by magnum12

I… thouroughly hate the new sprites for Steam. —'.`— Higurashi girls don't need a nose! That new girl, Une, for example, she looks freaking adorable!

Apparently Bou will be a serious story, not a silly add-on, that's cool. I still fail to see how a new Higurashi entry was necessary though.

That's pretty much how I see it too.

edited 10th Jul '14 4:21:08 AM by Lyendith

Was starting to think that steam release was just being forgotten. I'll probably buy it anyway just to support them, even if I never actually end up reading it.

Well, I have a feeling that Bou is going to be a world shaker, much like Rebellion was to its series. Since I have a sense of humor, here's a joke theory:

In order to protect both loved ones and happy endings earned from Tamura's misdeeds, Rika will end up becoming a demon. The name "Onigafuche" will become significant again. Rika's retribution against her will not be pretty

Maybe I should start getting "Wicked", "Kimi no Gin no Niwa" (Your Silver Garden), or "I was waiting for this moment" ready.

Warning: Do NOT under any means search those songs as they contain some EXTREMELY shocking, controversial SPOILERS!!!!!

Note: I'm absolutely certain that Tamura is the Big Bad.

Due to Une's different shade of green hair, she is a member of the Kimiyoshi bloodline, just like the protagonist of onisarashi-hen.

edited 10th Jul '14 4:00:27 PM by magnum12

STEAMMM RELEAAASSE HYPPEEEE

TIME TO FINALLY PLAY THE VN

WHOOOOOOO

WOOOOOOOT

'GERGUEIGAGERG

I've watched a few episodes of Umineko (up to the second game, where Battler and Beatrice interrupt the narrative with their logic battle).

I've been told that the visual novels are the ultimate way to experience the story - not sure if I want to go and purchase/download them though. What I want to know is if the anime actually completes Umineko's storyline, or will I have to read the manga/play the VN's to figure everything out?

The anime only covers the first 4 novels. (Out of 8.) Due to an extremely lackluster reception, it will never be finished.

Furthermore, the way the anime handles the story leaves out a ton of crucial clues, characterization, plot, and all sorts of other details that contribute to the full experience and the ability to solve the mystery in the first place.

The fan translator's website (Creator approved!) has links to where you can purchase the visual novels. http://witch-hunt.com/stage.html

What are you talking about, there's no Umineko anime. What a ridiculous thought.

Well, between the manga and VN, even though the former is a great adaptation, the latter's a more complete experience - you really can't miss out on the awesome soundtrack.

Much appreciated, however...

I'm still conflicted. I remember reading about how the "main mystery is solvable", but like Higurashi, there's "an arc that sets things up", and then an arc "that should explain things, but does so by reimagining the first". Only in the case of Umineko, it's even more complicated. I'm not looking forward to that - never played a VN, but maybe it will be a fun new experience.

For that matter I should ask: is there even really a "mystery"? That was the main appeal of Umineko, I'd read, but the whole premise seems simple Battler has to be wrong. He's trying to prove that magic and witches aren't real and had nothing to do with any of the murders, while Beatrice is deliberately warping reality to allow their battle to even take place.

I was considering the manga, but I'm not certain about that either. Finish the anime, buy the VN, or find the manga? Decisions, decisions.

edited 20th Jul '14 10:28:19 AM by FOFD

Whether or not the story is a legitimate mystery or a complete fantasy is in fact, one of the main topics of the story itself, and intensely debated by the characters. It's very complicated, but eventually does come together as a whole, with a little effort from the reader.

It's long, and one hell of an investment of time, but I can't help but recommend it anyway. Out of all the things I have read, watched, and played, which is a very large amount of things, Umineko still ranks as my absolute #1.

Well, there is Beato and other witches doing magical stuff in the meta-world, but when you think about it, if it was as simple as "the witch killed everyone", the whole logical battle, the red truths, and all that stuff would be meaningless and there would be no story. Don't bother to wonder "does magic exist?", but rather "was it used to commit the murders?"

But I guess the best way to put it is that Umineko is more an "emotional" mystery than a "technical" one. There are murder tricks and stuff, but even those tricks are intimately linked to the way the culprit(s)' mind(s) function. In other words the main mystery is not only "who committed the murders?" but also and even more "why did the murders happen?"

Figuring all that out indeed demands a lot of time and investment, since EP7 deliberately gives out only some parts of the answer and you have to "connect the dots" yourself from all the hints in the games and the dialogues. As Bern puts it, it's written in such a way that "those who haven't already reached an answer won't understand".

The EP8 VN is like the author saying "you want answers? I won't give them, lalala! ヽ(´∇´)ノ　(∇´ノ) ヽ(　　　)ノ　(ヽ´∇) ヽ(´∇`)ﾉ" for 20 hours. But it still has a gorgeous ending that made me cry like an open tap; as well as a quizz mini-game and a very fun little mystery to solve yourself!

Now the EP8 manga gives a lot more direct answers, though nobody knows what made Ryukishi change his mind. So for EP1-7 I recommend the VN, for EP8… it's a matter of which way you think you will enjoy the story best. "Explicit answers" if you read it in manga, "figure it out yourself" if you read it in VN. The second option certain has frustrated a lot of readers, but there are also many people who don't like the manga going all explicit as they feel it breaks the point of the story.

…

Err, but I just remembered that the English scanlations of the manga aren't at the "answer" part of Episode 8 yet. —'.`—

edited 20th Jul '14 3:19:02 PM by Lyendith

Umineko is a Philosophical Question wrapped in a Jigsaw Puzzle Plot wrapped in a bunch of Murder Mysteries wrapped in a bunch of Locked Room Mysteries.

Personally, the last choice is my favourite choice in any visual novel or video game. It really does complete the entire series, and I think that choice answers the riddle of the series.

Pics from the latest manga chapter.

It's chapter 27 I think? We're getting close to the end…

And… hum… no, seriously.◊ (yes, she actually says "keikaku doori" in this shot).

But really, I would love to see Natsumi Kei make her own series. I'm pretty sure it would be awesome.

edited 25th Jul '14 2:12:34 PM by Lyendith