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Bakuman
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Bakuman:

I think we should wait until Natural get worse before label it as Character Derailment. But, yeah, I think it definitively counts as one if it indeed happen.

Btw, WUE, you made a mistake in the link. It is linking the 7th page.

 452 Gilphon, Fri, 9th Jul '10 9:14:12 AM from The Third Sound Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Scum
Oh, cool. Iwase just fell out of the 'crazy bitch' role and into a more normal 'rival' one. I can definitely handle that.
Welp, sig's different now.
^^ Oops, I'm going to correct that. Thanks for pointing it to me.

edited 9th Jul '10 10:11:26 AM by WUE

 
 454 Clarste, Fri, 9th Jul '10 11:26:46 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
I found it kind of funny that within this apparently sexist manga, a series is now on the verge of cancellation for being blatantly sexist. True Human seems to have become weird, it what appears to be some kind of slave fetishist way.

 455 Gilphon, Fri, 9th Jul '10 11:54:02 AM from The Third Sound Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Scum
It's more in danger of cancelation because people are drifting away from it. If it kept up a consistent readership despite the slave fetishist undertones, it probably would have been fine.

...I can't believe I just typed that.
Welp, sig's different now.
 456 Clarste, Fri, 9th Jul '10 12:04:27 PM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
But it didn't keep up a consistent readership, in this world where the reactions of the audience are crafted by the authors. Isn't that what counts?

 457 Anarchy, Fri, 9th Jul '10 12:40:27 PM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Yup, the authors explicitly chose to make True Human lose readership after becoming blatantly sexist.

 458 Raw Power, Fri, 9th Jul '10 1:26:19 PM from Barcelona
Jesus as in Revelations
It's interesting that the editors didn't say "disgusting" or "grotesque. but just "weird"...

But yeah, I think this has made Iwase rethink her priorities and fight for great justice!

And, well, maybe she does have talent, but she has trouble coming up with new ideas at manga industrial rate. Takagi had the same problem with gags, he was at wit's end!
Yes, but the reason isn't just it's "women as slaves" theme. That would be kind of interesting, but since it isn't used for drama, it comes off weird. It's supposed to reflect the writers growing dependency on cabaret bars and his lack of focus on the manga.
 460 SKJAM, Fri, 9th Jul '10 7:43:10 PM from Minneapolis Relationship Status: Cast away
Great and Powerful
Ah, not having read most of the middle chapters yet (dial-up), I didn't immediately connect the guy in the trash heap to "True Human."

Yep, if he's just pumping in Author Appeal to his series without thinking through how it connects to the theme and action, and how it would affect the previously established characters, the result is going to look "weird" and turn off a lot of readers. Yes, Gor is popular with the people who like that sort of thing, But if you started reading a different space adventure series and it suddenly turned into Gor, most of you would be puzzled, and not a few turned off. And it's not like he's an author with a large enough following to get away with it (unlike say Laurell K. Hamilton.)

His editor needs to have a "Come to Jesus meeting(1)" with the author of "True Human" ASAP, or the fellow's going to be stuck with selling slave fetish doujinshi at Comiket to earn eating money.

(1) Not necessarily religious, it means a meeting where you have to tell someone it's not working out, and they'll have to make a major change in behavior or be cut loose. For example, a lawyer telling the client they have no viable case, and they'll need to settle or find a new attorney. "Repent!"
The author of True Human is a hikikomori, so I guess any kind of social interaction will overwhelm him. He really can't be blamed for that. Though interestingly, I still don't see the point of his character. Will he be used as some sort author tract later on?
 
 462 Anarchy, Sat, 10th Jul '10 5:37:48 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller

edited 10th Jul '10 5:39:13 AM by Anarchy

 463 Anarchy, Sat, 10th Jul '10 5:38:56 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
I don't know if his characterization needs to have a point or to serve as an Author Tract, although that could be the case. The point of having True Human was to have a dark, non-mainstream series similar to what Takagi and Mashiro were turning out, and I liked the characterization of the author that came with it. I really appreciate the interaction between him and his editor, who's trying to get him to come out of his shell, and how some of it works and some of it backfires. Like what happened with the cabaret club. I also like the fact that the editor's a selfish upstart who's doing all of it for his own benefit instead of being some idealistic nice guy.

It's just that both of them tend to go Out of Focus compared to some of the other mangaka, but with a story premise like this, that's only to be expected. It's supposed to be mainly Takagi's and Mashiro's story after all. Any other mangakas are just there to be their competition/friends/flavoring.

You might as well argue that there's no point to Hiramaru either. Except for being comedic relief.

^^And the hikikomori obviously needs to have a cabaret club intervention.

Jesus as in Revelations
I'd have liked Bakuman。 to have a more Pulp Fiction like, multi-POV treatment, where every character is the star of the scene he's in. Currently, only Niizuma does it, and his scenes are still all about ashirogi muto rather than about himself.
 465 Anarchy, Sun, 11th Jul '10 11:00:16 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Well, it IS a shonen series.

Hiramaru is obviously comedic relief. The hikikomori on the other hand had plenty of scenes devoted entirely for him, so his character must obviously have a bigger meaning than Hiramaru.
 
 467 Anarchy, Sun, 11th Jul '10 12:18:14 PM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Maybe he's there for comic relief as well? There are plenty of scenes devoted only to Hiramaru as well, so...

Well, the hikikomori scenes aren't comic relief.
 
 469 Anarchy, Mon, 12th Jul '10 2:07:39 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Maybe they're there for the heartwarming? tongue

edited 12th Jul '10 2:07:58 AM by Anarchy

Jesus as in Revelations
Maybe they're here for the Creepy Cool?
 471 Kayeka, Tue, 13th Jul '10 2:02:46 AM from Amsterdam Relationship Status: Brony
World's biggest wannabe
When I saw what happened to True Human and Iwase, I couldn't help but believe that the writers suddenly realised that something was wrong with the whole thing about women in this manga. As if they suddenly came across this forum.

I mean, come on. One series get's slammed for being crazily sexist, and Iwase suddenly get's the friendly rival thing right. The first sounds like an apolagy and the second like an improvement.

Well, whatever. I was really happy about the Iwase thing. Less crazy bitch, more competitive rival is just perfect.
 472 SKJAM, Tue, 13th Jul '10 2:49:45 AM from Minneapolis Relationship Status: Cast away
Great and Powerful
One thing I do like about Bakuman。 is that it does look at how important the editor is to the creative process for good or ill. Different creators are going to need different approaches to bring out their best work—some will need to be jollied along, others a touch of the whip or a cold "get over yourself and get busy." Iwase likes bullet points and a clear critique that lets her know what's working and what's not. Others will want blanket praise and gentle hints.
Jesus as in Revelations
Iwase y Niizuma se vaaan a a casaaar!

Niizuma san Niizuma san, asobo janai ka?

No way, I'm drwing mng

edited 16th Jul '10 5:04:45 AM by RawPower

 474 Anarchy, Fri, 16th Jul '10 5:38:53 AM from Perak, Malaysia
just a medicine seller
Number 1: This is the sort of rival Iwase should have been from the beginning.

Number 2: I hate to say this but I can totally see myself in Iwase in that I'm so insecure I fall in love with anyone who praises me even just a little.

Number 3: A failing shonen series? No problem, just add a nice huge dose of Large Ham in terms of the art.

Number 4: Calling it right now. Iwase and Niizuma are going to end up together.

Number 5: I know the poor hikikomori is supposed to be there for comic relief, but oh dear. I can't feel anything but pity for him.

edited 16th Jul '10 5:40:41 AM by Anarchy

I find it difficult to believe kids having such a good eye for tones.
 
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