Israel's image where you live

Well, if our own takes are being given too, my take is that the Israeli government is its own worst enemy in a lot of the more recent situations. It's frustrating to watch them do something that you immediately know was avoidable and is going to land them in hot water and then have to defend them when my classmates start tearing into them. A lot of my Jewish friends feel the same way.

The left wing groups here are naturally antiisrael for good reason (my bias is coming in here).

There are groups like Louis Farrakan's and jeremiah wright who speak against the zionist influence in the government in the USA and they get some views and vie talked to some who lean towards those ideas.

I'd say most people are meh worthy.

Note I haven't talked to many Jews on Israel, or talked to black or white churchgoers in church on israel either so the informations is incomplete.

WHASSUP....... ....with lolis!

I'm going to take "where I live" to mean my university here in Massachusetts and my family life in Connecticut (rooted in my family's New York origins).

First of all, I myself am Jewish, though my immediate family is not particularly religious.

I go to Brandeis University, which is unusual in that it was founded by Jews for Jews about 50 years ago, and is about 50% Jewish, but is technically nonsectarian. The funny thing is, though it's known as the "Jew school", it also has a deserved reputation for activism and liberal attitudes, though not as ridiculous as some other colleges. So this creates a split atmosphere: out of the people who actually care about what's going on in the Middle East, about half seem to support Israel no matter what, while others are critical of many of the things Israel has done and try to advocate for more balanced views. Obviously, holding a critical view of Israel in such a school is a bit tough, but there are a lot of people with such views, so they stick together. There has been some contention and protesting and interruptions at events, but nothing too ugly so far.

Meanwhile, I am in the unique position of belonging to a family in which my two uncles and one aunt on my father's side all...er...upgraded to Orthodox Judaism, and my aunt and the older of the two uncles (all these siblings are younger than my dad, whose medical path kept him from being attracted in the same direction as the others) moved to Israel where they now have 9 and 5 children, respectively. My grandparents partially followed their example and "upgraded" to Conservative Judaism. My grandmother is wary of all Arabs and is staunchly Zionist. My grandfather is somewhat more reasonable. Both are members of AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee, I think?) and have tried to encourage me to become a similar sort of activist.

I will admit my flaws, I'm an apathetic and ambivalent person who's too busy trying to keep my grades up to care about the larger world. But I've got family over there, nice normal aunts and uncles and cousins. I support what will keep them safe, in theory. But really, I don't think much about it.

Flora Segunda | World Made By Hand | Monster Blood Tattoo ^You should read these series.

In Morocco israel is universally despised (not hated though, there is a difference). There has also been confusion between anti-Israelism and anti-Semitism for a while, but a series of egptian documentaries that proposed the thesis that Israel deliberately promoted anti-semitism for the sake of attracting much-needed immigration and fostering a sentiment of national unit agaisnt a foreign threat has changed people's views on the matter. Now added to the charges of Israel is "stealing our Jewish neighbors, friends and partners from us": this does have some truth to it, since, as far as I know, King Hassan II sold them en masse Israel and had them leave their houses en masse in the night, one neighborhood at a time, and shipped them there on charter flights: it seems Israel truly was desperate for immigration, and forbade the immigrants to return. Jewish/Muslim interaction in Morocco has been notoriously peaceful and stable, although it did have an edge to it (Jews had a superstition drink from sources from which Muslims drank, for example... at least in the [[http://www.jewishtravelagency.com/JewishTravel/MoroccoMarrakDunesValleys.htm Jewish Mellah of Zagora I visited). Please take all this with a grain of salt: all I have is eyewitness testimonies, only one of which was firsthand, and it came from a senile God-bothering arthritic old geezer.

In Spain, opinions are more mixed. Steroetypes are common, and Muslims tend to be strawmanned into Al Qaeda, as is Hamas. However, people are generally very disillusioned with Israel. While after major israeli blunders such as Molten Lead there have been massive, months-long campaings of opinion articles in the press, reclaiming the Sefarade culture and spanish speaking Jews and yadda yadda, it seems the excessive interventions of the Israeli embassy, in a country where Jewish capital is practically inexistent, ended up tiring the editorial boards of Spanish journals, who have abandoned the blatant propaganda. Television, as far as I know, remains fairly neutral. Spaniards are too busy continuing the Spanish Civil War and overcoming economic crises to care too much about such things.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Sounds rather ludicrous since any anti-semitism would eventually fall back on Israels relations with other countries and endanger the lives of the very people abroad they want to see safe.

Then again, I once read in a magazine that Israel lobbied for the bars for jews immigrating from Russia to Germany to be raised so that they would chose to migrate to Israel instead.

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

I live in America, specifically Florida. I think the first minute or so of the following video sums up Israel's image around here:

A big problem is that being against Israel on any issue or against the idea of the country itself is seen as equivalent to being antisemitic.

edited 9th Oct '10 10:01:28 PM by jaimeastorga2000

Legally Free Content

Round here - Southern California college town/manufacturing center hit hard for obvious reasons - Israel is variously seen as "can do no wrong," "democracy and ally with a penchant for the Wall Banger " and "apartheid imperialist state persecuting poor Arabs/Christians/Muslims/space aliens". And combinations of said categories. All in all, though, most people here seem to see Israel as "a land of funny foreigners which have shit all to do with us, and how the factories are laying off workers and all".

In Australia, it seems that there's a very small and vocal minority with pro-Palestianian sentiments, but most people are quietly pro-Israel.

The Palestianians are largely seen as constantly and unnecessarily antagonising Israel.

Again with the data mining, dear Aunt?

In Canada it seems to be largely a left-right split. Liberals tend to be more anti-Israel (unions and universities are almost universally against Israel and support boycotts and protests against them) while conservatives are much more supportive. Because Canada is currently governed by the Conservatives, the political administration is one of the most pro-Israel in recent history. It's quite probable that that's what cost Canada the seat on the UN Security Council it's been lobbying for (Muslim/Arab nations have 57 votes on the UN).

There was a period about ten years ago where the more liberal newspapers had a very obvious anti-Israel bias; basically the Toronto Star went out of its way to portray Israel in a bad light while the National Post couldn't criticize them if they tried. More recently both newspapers have moved closer to the middle, though the Post is still very supportive.

It should be noted that universities everywhere tend to have a lot of radical left-wingers and hence tend to be very anti-Israel - even in Israel itself, where "post-Zionism" is apparently a fad.

In Norway it's almost entirely negative. There are a few with a some positive attitudes towards Israel, but they are a very small minority and usually don't get heard much. Mostly the discussion about the Palestine-Israel conflict is wether or not the Palestinians are as bad as the Israelis and wether the situation is so hopeless that any energy spent on the issue is wasted. Both the right of return and 67-borders are seen by very many as non-negiable. The Oslo process is often viewed as a sham where American and Norwegian (taking their cue from the Americans) diplomats trying to force the Palestinians to accept Israeli oppression without complaint

^ Yeah, that's what people in Arab countries think the PLO has been doing ever since.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Well I'll speak from a university perspective and agree with Cidolfas. Universities tend to be very anti-israel, not to be confused with anti-jew. I think it is a combination of several factors...

a) University populations are mostly Chinese, Indian, Pakistani. For the Chinese they don't care but if they see war, then they feel it's simply the wrong way to do things. For most muslim populations they see the plight of Palestinians and thus hold Israel responsible, regardless of what other crimes might have been committed by both sides.

b) Liberalism and pacifism are usually tied with one another. Most of the left in Canada (of course not all) supports peacekeeping efforts. Israel is a theocracy and it is viewed as militant. These run completely against the principles and so it's held in a negative light.

The right in Canada might be sorta pro-Israel but not very strongly so. The strongest arguments I ever see, though rarely so, is simply that they view Hamas or Fatah as terrorist regimes and thus have no legitimacy and can be bombed with glee.

Personally, I view Israel's government in a bad light. It's not helping the Jewish population in the area and it sacrificed a two thousand year old relationship with Muslims for a small worthless tract of desert (How many Jews are actually that religious about it, a minority I am sure but all my Israeli friends are rather apathetic about religion). The long-term survival of Jews in the world depends on keeping and fostering healthy international relationships. Events like the Aid Flotilla raid deaths just go to show that the Israeli government is incapable of finding proper solutions to problems even if they are simple. They rely on propaganda and misdirection to keep themselves in power. I expect competent leadership and peaceful solutions (mind you I rarely get to see that in ANY country :P).

edited 15th Oct '10 8:53:20 AM by breadloaf

Theocracy? Do explain.

Machinima in my color model?!

Are there really people who think that? The mere exsistance of a state religion does not make it a theocracy, otherwise England would also be considered a theocracy.

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

A state is a theocracy if its religious rules are what it makes its legal system from. Israel is founded on a religion, but it isn't a theocracy.

This is a topic for another thread in any case.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

There is a fairly significant element within Israel who wish to make it theocratic, however.

I have a Pagan friend who lives in Israel who likes to complain about this tendency at length.

^ That is hilarious.

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Well it's not about state religion that leads to a view of Israel being a theocracy. It's more about its favouritism of Judaism over other religions.

If you wanted to ask my personal opinion, I would say it's theocratic. It has a lot of laws that are split solely on religion. It has citizenship rules based solely on religion. It has a military conscription that has heavy religious segregation.

But you treat the word theocracy as a negative connotation and I am not sure why. It just means that religion plays a large role in your government and that is fine, so long as you treat your citizens well. Democracy and theocratic regimes are not mutually exclusive. I care more about utility than ideology.

I just see that the wikipedia page on theocracy specifically mentions Israel and that it doesn't really fit the bill of a theocracy. At least not the one given at the top of the same page.

Otherwise: Personal Dictionary at work.

edited 15th Oct '10 1:13:08 PM by DasAuto

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

No, it's generally used to mean "rule by clergy", that sort of thing.

[1] This facsimile operated in part by synAC.

^^If you had bothered to read it, you would have noticed that they mention how Israel is often accused of this, but actually doesn't fit the common usage of the term.

edited 15th Oct '10 1:18:47 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Okay, if you want, I can call it a vote-based capitalist economy state with theocratic elements pertaining to it's treatment of Judaism. It's just semantics, I don't think it's too important in the discussion on views of Israel. Then again I suppose if you guys associate such connotations to the word then probably many others do as well.

My problem with Israel is that it's government lashes out too hard and kills strategic friendships. Like losing Turkey as a friend is a huge blow to Israel international relations and I don't think the government is taking it seriously. They just want to play up the whole "there are terrorists in Turkey" media hype to gain a couple of votes for next election for his embattled government. It's populist and it's hurtful to Israel in the long-term. At some point in time, two-state, one-state, fifty-state, happy fun time state, everybody there right now is going to have to learn to live with each other.

That's exactly what I said. Thank you for repeating it for no reason.

I see you are new here. Enjoy all the semantics derail you will cause here in the future.

edited 15th Oct '10 1:43:02 PM by DasAuto

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

I understood

when you meant

Sorry. It may seem farfetched to you, but you know how it is with priming and anchoring...

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

I think neither the Isrealis or the Palestenians are "more right".