Neon Genesis Evangelion

So I consider mechanical kaiju to be under the Super Robot flag. I understand the grim tone of the series, the non idealistic characters, and the general feeling of despair, but the Eva's just scream super robo to me.

And for the funny I paraphrase a Ryusei Date. "There's no way these things run off of electricity."

You know to be careful about using the word "robot" right? People like to jump to calling them "cyborgs".

edited 5th Apr '12 9:04:09 PM by Chadaman99

It's Super Robot to me in the terms of how the mechanics of the way the robots work.

Oh, super robot shows can be very dark. The whole real/super thing is mostly about a show's general style, and I think Eva is a bit of both: it's got the politics of a real robot show, and the superhero antics of a super robot show.

Some describe Super Robots as Pro Wrestling with robots.

Pro wrestlers don't tear each other's arms off only to stab each other's heart using each other's ribs.

Sadly true. Also, pro wrestlers can't detach their fists or shoot lasers out of their eyes.

Yeah, but they would if they could. The shit EVA and Angels pull isn't even done in horror movies. Or even in other anime, besides Hellsing.

Hm...

If I ever become a flim-maker, and make a horror movie, I might have my characters fighting like that...

edited 6th Apr '12 3:05:51 AM by TheHandle

I happen to be one of those people who likes almost everyone in NGE- except Gendo and Yui. I like Rei, I like Asuka, and I like Shinji.

To me however I just can't see Rei as Shinji's Love Interest. This is because Eva is very Jungian, and Asuka is clearly Shinji's anima as represented by a Love Interest, while Shinji is clearly Asuka's animus.

I can understand the confusion, since in the first six episodes Rei is presented as Shinji's anima. However, while the anima is often the Love Interest, other common anima figures include younger sisters, daughters, and for particularly young protagonist even the mother. In my opinion Rei during the first six episodes is a rather ambiguous anima figure. Still I would judge her as primarily a younger sister type of anima.

Rei is a great anima figure for Shinji in his early stages, representing his inner self at the start of the show. Silent and withdrawn, abused and neglected, yet still beautiful and brave. In episode one, Shinji is called upon to protect Rei, and he does so- this represents his Call to Adventure. By the end of episode six Shinji has completed this development in working with Rei to defend others.

While Rei is Shinji's anima figure in the first six episodes, the groundwork was also laid for Rei's future role in the rest of the series as one of Shinji's mother figures. Rei's similar appearance to Yui, Gendo's wife and Shinji's mother, combined with Rei's relationship with Gendo, in which she clearly serves as Gendo's anima figure, sets up a conflict between Father and Son over the Mother. In the final confrontation Gendo demonstrates his utter depravity by sacrificing his anima figure, and Rei representing the Mother chooses Shinji over Gendo. Culminating in Rei merging with Lilith, becoming Eve, the Mother of All Living. As this Eve figure Rei then absorbs all life on Earth (representing the retreat of mankind into the womb), and then giving birth to first Shinji, and then Asuka, as they are reborn into the world. Rei as a mother figure is even explicitly stated for us when Shinji tells her that she reminds him of a mother.

Asuka on the other hand shows up in episode eight, and quickly establishes herself as Shinji's other half. They have very similar tragic backgrounds; they both identify piloting the Eva as providing their worth and value in life. In other aspects they are mirror images of each other. Asuka is a female dominated by her male aspects; Shinji is a male dominated by his female aspects. (This is why gender flipping of the Eva pilots is considered so illuminating). Shinji wants to run away from everything, Asuka wants to attack everything- fight and flight.

There comes a point in every man's life when he needs to leave his home and go out into the world to make his way, including finding his mate: The Other who becomes part of him. Asuka is clearly set up as the mysterious woman that Shinji cannot understand yet is deeply attracted to. Essentially she is the anima of the man Shinji must become. The rest of the series can be interpreted as Shinji struggling with this development, continually tempted to run back to his mother figures (Rei and Misato), and then turning around and trying to connect with Asuka who he doesn't understand but needs to become one with.

The reason Shinji goes to Asuka in the hospital is not because she is the only one left, but because Shinji is no longer complete within the bounds of his mother figures, and he feels the need for his Love Interest anima. Shinji's interaction with Asuka in Instrumentality represents Shinji's hatred and rejection of himself, culminating in his attack on his anima and the strangling of her. When Shinji learns to accept himself he leaves Instrumentality but is left alone and desolate without his anima. Then Asuka is returned to him, and the final scene represents the reconciliation between Shinji and his inner anima. Shinji is still in a place where he feels the need to destroy himself, but then his anima reaches up to caress him, signalling that she accepts him, even his disgusting elements. Shinji is now whole, and thus the show ends on a happy note.

This would probably be more clear except that NGE adopts a very ambitious storytelling goal. Unlike most such stories Asuka is not merely an anima figure playing out her role in the drama of the main protagonist hero. Asuka is the heroine protagonist of her own story that mirrors the hero protagonist. As such, Shinji represents her animus, and Asuka too must struggle with meeting her other half, a mysterious man who she cannot understand, yet is deeply attracted to. While Shinji must deal with accepting responsibility for his strength (ie Shinji needs to "man up"), Asuka struggles with accepting her weakness and allowing others to protect her. This is of course aggravated by Shinji's wimpy demeanor, as compared to Kaji's more mature manhood.

Despite Shinji's weakness, he does continually come to rescue her. Which is why the Mind Rape scene is so devastating for Asuka. Her hero did not come rescue her, yet as she later complains, he does try to rescue Rei (Shinji's mother figure- thus representing the struggle between wife and mother in law). This is also devastating to Shinji as he is restrained by his father from protecting her, forced to watch his anima figure be violated. This is the scene that breaks the bonds created by their previous interactions over the previous dozen episodes, and causes the schism that needs to be healed before they can be reconciled. Asuka rejects her animus (Shinji) during Instrumentality as unworthy of her, a false animus who didn't protect her, and sees her as a sex object instead of respecting her as you would a wife and lover. It is implied by the caress while Shinji is strangling her, that Asuka forgives Shinji, and decided to rejoin him once Shinji had matured enough to leave Instrumentality, and thus they are reunited and Asuka is made whole.

Personally I found the decision to have both the anima and animus as protagonists in their own interacting stories elevates Neon Genesis Evangelion above the more common melodramas. It's truer to real life, in which it is not just about doing the right thing and then your Love Interest accepts you and off you go into the happy ending. Instead, real life requires both the man and the woman to choose to accept the other. This creates a lot of angst, as you might be ready to form a bond with the other person, but what if they aren't ready to bond with you?

As for Rei's initial role as the anima, that is a common motif in Coming of Age stories, for the younger sister to have the anima role in early parts of the hero's story, and to later be replaced as the anima by the Love Interest.

One of the things that clearly marks Asuka out as the Love Interest of Shinji is that she is the only female who is never depicted as a mother figure to Shinji.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:03:35 AM by Sackett

That's...very well written.

I see Eva as part of the Super Robot Genre as well, but utilizes problems that occur in the Real Robot Genre as far as characters.

Other really dark Super Robot series is the manga version of Mazinger Z (Ironically, despite being the Trope Codifier), Betterman, and a few others, maybe.

Oh, and Bokurano.

edited 6th Apr '12 7:13:57 AM by Demongodofchaos2

That was frankly quite excellent (though I'd honestly question the need to writer something that long about Shipping, of all things), and I honestly don't know the first thing about Jungianism (is that a word?) so I may not be in the best position to debate you, but a few of your points confuse me. First off, Asuka as the "attractive mystery woman." Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Asuka basically the exact opposite of a mystery woman? She wants to be famous and have everyone know who she is, after all. I don't recall any point in the story where Shinji ever speculates on her nature or where she came from or anything like that (though I could be misremembering), whereas he does with Rei, who is in every way an "attractive mystery woman."

Second, Asuka as a protagonist. I wouldn't actually say she is one, nor would I say Rei is; they're both supporting characters. Unless the trope you're trying to invoke here is Hero of Another Story, in which case... I'm not really seeing that, either. We get both her story and Rei's, but, again, they serve to supplement the main story, of which Shinji is the protagonist (though I'd be open to an argument that Yui fills that role as well).

Finally, Rei as a mother figure. Just because a character is a counterpoint to a father figure does not make that character a mother figure, plain and simple. Rei is a peer of Shinji. She's the same age, has the same job, goes to the same school. This, of course, applies to Asuka as well. We do get the scene where Shinji says Rei cleaning "reminds him of a mother," but I think this is meant to be a hint toward her nature as part-Yui and part-Lilith, one a human mother and the other a cosmic-scale mother, rather than any sign that she mothers Shinji or that he sees her as specifically his mother.

Just my $.02.

edited 6th Apr '12 8:23:01 AM by HamburgerTime

Wait, how are Asuka and Rei not protagonist? You seem to be ignoring the fact that things can have more than one protagonist.

Actually, the definition of the term is quite vague, so discussing semantics here would do more harm than good, since different people understand the word differently.

Well, at any case, I think we all agree Shinji, and only Shinji, is the most important character in the story. Others (Rei, Asuka, Misato, etc), may be called protagonists, but are still obviously less central than him. I think what Hamburger meant is that neither Asuka nor Rei have the same importance as Shinji, unlike what Sackett may have implied (though Sackett himself probably didn't meant 'protagonist' like that either).

If anyone here knows Commander Obvious, he might have pointed out that rather than Jungian, the characters follow Freudian psychology. I'm not well-versed in psychology though, but Commander Obvious might talk about the Oedipal complex when it comes to Shinji and Rei; I've heard him refer to it a couple of times. Just a little something to add to the discussion.

The Oedipal stuff is so obvious that I think people just gloss over it...the Jungian analysis, that I hadn't considered before.

Right, maybe I worded it badly. What I'm saying is the Sackett seems to be implying Asuka's story is "equal" to Shinji's somehow, and I'm just not seeing that. And like I said, I actually think one could make a compelling argument that Yui is the actual protagonist; at the very least, everything seems to have gone just as keikaku for her.

That was one really impressive analysis Sackett. While I won't be changing my favorite ship, I do at least applaud the thought you put into your analysis.

Even so, I still can't accept the whole Shinji x Asuka thing as anything more than superficial. Why? Well I ain't going to do as much of an in-depth psychological analysis as you did, but here's my two cents.

Personally, I find the whole relationship between Shinji and Asuka to be rather one-sided. While I can see how it would work from a Jungian and metaphorical statement, as your analysis worded much better than I can, from a realistic stand-point, at least to me, it just doesn't work out.

Think about it. On one hand we have Shinji, someone who feels extremely poor about himself, is constantly looking for praise, and constantly shuts himself away whenever he is told that he is worthless or needs to man up. On the other hand, we have Asuka, who also feels really poor about herself. However her response to build up her ego, constantly lash out at others, and overall is much more aggressive. I just simply don't see how this would work out in a real relationship. Shinji is just too much of a spineless person who is constantly craving praise, while Asuka is also looking for praise, but is much more volatile. If anything, this would lead to far too many fights and conflicts. While they could eventually work it all out, I just don't think they would be a healthy couple.

The reason I pair him up with Rei is that, while yes, she is a bit of a motherly figure, she also is one of the few who Shinji feels comfortable with. They bring out the best in each other, and are actually more similar in terms of interests and reactions to different conflicts. I just feel that, while it is a but Oedipal I'll admit, it makes more sense for Shinji to be drawn to Rei as she doesn't have nearly as much of the volatile personality and violent actions that Asuka brings.

I'll admit that in the original series, Anno did seem to be pushing for the Shinji x Asuka ship more than he is now, as the Rebuild series is more focused on Shinji x Rei. However, I think that may have to do with his outlook at the time. Anno was going through a pretty tough Creator Breakdown, and may have viewed relationships as something that is extremely painful, yet can be worked through if you reach out enough. I'm no expert on relationships, but I find that hard to believe. Wouldn't that lead to a really messy couple who may ultimately divorce? While opposites can attract, you also need to be with someone who can bring out the best in you, and is willing to comfort you, not just lash out at you.

Again, just my two cents.

The problem is, however, you are using Shinji and Asuka in their broken states as a base for their relationship. If they weren't messed up, they wouldn't lash out at each other. They can't have a relationship in that state. That's the point Anno was trying to make. You can't have healthy relationships if you have nothing but loathing for yourself, and if Shinji and Asuka didn't hate themselves, they wouldn't have the attitude they had.

Edit: Asuka is also friendlier in Rebuild. The only reason for Anno to make Shinji and Rei canon is because from what I've heard Rei is very, very, very popular in Japan.

Personally, I wouldn't have any of the pairings "win". Keep it ambiguous.

edited 6th Apr '12 12:17:15 PM by SilentColossus

I understand, but since their are no therapists in the Evangelion universe, and they don't seem to have recovered all that much throughout the course of the series until the very end, I am still not sure as to how they would work. Plus I don't think that Shinji would fit well with Asuka's volatile and prideful personality.

I just prefer Rei as a mother figure for Shinji. Makes a better story, I feel.

To each their own. While I see Rei as being a better Love Interest, I can understand why some would think differently.

Eh. I don't like Rei for various reasons and I don't ship though if I did I would side with Asuka if only because I feel she and Shinji would help each other grow and develop.

[[Rei is very, very, very popular in Japan.]]

Depends on who you ask.

Sorry if I came across as argumentative: I just think what caused Shinji's breakdown (and which relationship would be most healthy for him) makes interesting discussion.

I always thought it was a combination of things that led to Shinji's breakdown.

"Very popular" doesn't mean "universally loved", though.