Neon Genesis Evangelion

You know, I like to think the end of 26 is Shinji accepting Instrumentality rather than rejecting it.

Err, no, He's not accepting instrumentality; he's explicitly says he wants to continue existing in the outside world.

No, he doesn't. He says "I want to continue existing in this world."

And at the beginning of the episode, it states that "The year is 2016 A.D. The thing that people lost. In other words, the instrumentality of souls was still ongoing. However, there is far too little time left to make mention of it all. Therefore, now, we will take the boy named Shinji Ikari and tell the story of the instrumentality of his soul."

I think you're looking at the choices strangely. He can either...

a) Continue to exist as an individual, or... b) Stop existing as an individual and fully dissolve into the collective that humanity has become—souls without borders, all mixed together.

He says things like, "It's okay for me to be here!" If "here" meant Instrumentality, then how is this an uplifting thing? It's okay for him to give up individuality and become one with others fully? Furthermore, this is inconsistent with EoE, which we know is intended to be consistent with 25 and 26 through the intercut scenes depicting what happened in the real world that just couldn't be expounded upon.

While it is plainly obvious that End was the planned ending, is there anything officially stating that the two endings are concurrent?

But the preceding lecture he receives is about how its alright for him to understand the reality that he perceives which, while being different than the realities that others have, is no less 'true'.

... I thought the end of the TV series was about Shinji finally realizing and coming to accept that not only do people care for him, every single person he knew did.

Yeah.

Shinji: "But everyone hates me, don't they?

Asuka: "Idiot, haven't you figured out that its all in your imagination, you megadork?"

I mean, the ending is basically Shinji learning how to function as an individual.

edited 12th Mar '12 4:42:25 PM by Scherzo09

Its an aesop that some people like me forget.

edited 12th Mar '12 5:25:50 PM by GAP

Accepting that people did care for him, even if they couldn't show it perfectly and may have ended up hurting him instead in the process, is the only reason it makes sense to walk around again as separate people, knowing the risks, instead of staying in Instrumentality, where knowledge of such feelings is perfect but the reward from being separate and enjoying those sentiments is nonexistent.

No, he doesn't. He says "I want to continue existing in this world."

What world would there be in Instrumentality? An empty world with nothing but giant, unified concioussness to fill it. The alternate reality was not a part of Instrumentailty's final outcome: Instrumentality is not a Lotus-Eater Machine. "This world" Shinji was referring to was the world of reality because he just realized that life was only miserable for him because he hasn't been telling himself otherwise: his life actually does have meaning, he could like himself, and others do care for him. The indicator that he's rejecting Instrumentality is that the background around him cracks and breaks when he makes his decleration; that room was being used to reperesent Instrumentality ever since the end of the previous episode.

People misinterpret that "this world" line way too much. It was an acceptance of reality, not a rejection.

edited 12th Mar '12 8:47:28 PM by ManwiththePlan

Oh really?

Do you have any source that it was an acceptance of reality?

Here's everything that came before "congragulations":

Kaji: A person's truth is so simple, that most ignore it to concentrate on what they think are deeper truths.

Gendo: You, for example, are simply unused to what it is to be liked by others.

Misato: You've never learned how to deal with fearing what others feel about you and so you avoid it.

Shinji: But, don't the others hate me?

Asuka: What are you, stupid? Haven't you realized it's all in your imagination, you megadork!

Shinji: But, I hate myself.

Rei: One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another.

Shinji: I'm a coward. I'm cowardly, sneaky and weak.

Misato: No, only if you think you are, but if you know yourself, you can take care of yourself.

Shinji: [introspectively] I hate myself. But, maybe, maybe I could love myself. Maybe, my life can have a greater value. That's right!. I am no more or less than myself. I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! My life is worth living here!

Notice how everyone, Shinji included, were speaking of Shinji himself as an individual. If he were to accept instrumentality, he would NOT be "himself" (which he says he wants to be), he would be just part of a single unified existance. He's learned here that if he can just stop hating himself and telling himself that his is a miserable, meaningless existance, he can make his life have a greater value. He could find a purpose for himself. And that can only happen if he continues living as a human being in the real world with others. Hence, "his life is worth living here." Here in the world, and his life being his life as an individual, not a unified lifeform.

Off that topic, I agree with everything that Chariot, Accela, and L Dragon 2 has said about End of Evangelion. Also, the idea that it's NOT a Downer Ending is bullshit, and I do not buy that it's THE canon ending. It COULD be what was happening during the actual shows' last two episodes, but it could very well be alternate last episode endings. I tend to think of it as just the ending to Death and Rebirth's telling of the show, while the original ending is the ending of the show itself. Really, this series has no definitve ending for me.

And no, the series ending was NOT planned in advance by Anno. He's stated that the series would originally end with the final angels' defeat and the SEELE instrumentality subplot being resolved sometime before that, but his plans changed due to his Creator Breakdown. Really, he never did know what he was doing.

edited 12th Mar '12 8:42:10 PM by ManwiththePlan

I see. Hopefully, now that he is actually sane and hopefully knows what he is doing now, he will give everyone the happy ending for the Rebuild series.

Unless he decides to troll us all with an even worse ending.

You got a problem with trying to get a little bit of hope out of an otherwise bleak show? Sure, The Bad Guy Wins. But in the end, did it matter much? If you take it all at face value, it looks like a Shoot the Shaggy Dog story, and I'd prefer to think I watched a more compelling and complete psychological journey than that. That's why I said the things I did, and I stand by them.

Hope Spot is more like it. "Everyone can return to the world if they choose to" just isn't good enough for me when the world has very clearly been ravaged by Third Impact and everyone is psychologically broken in the end. It'd probably be better to just stay dead after all that unfolded. When it all comes down to it, there's nothing uplifting in End of Evangelion at all.

Also:

and I'd prefer to think I watched a more compelling and complete psychological journey than that.

If you're implying that Evangelion is in any way a deep, mature work of fiction, then you oughta take it off that pedestal. The psychology may be compelling, but it's philosophies are pretentious BS and it's in no ways "complete" because Anno did not know what the fuck he was doing with the work by that point. In his own words, everything psychological and mindscrewy in the latter half of the series was merely "a scream", nothing more.

I see. Hopefully, now that he is actually sane and hopefully knows what he is doing now, he will give everyone the happy ending for the Rebuild series.

That seems to be specificially what he's aiming for. And no, I do not think he's the trolling type.

edited 12th Mar '12 9:31:28 PM by ManwiththePlan

I'd hope that Rebuild is a happier ending. I mean, I'm not expecting them to walk off into the sunset accompanied by unicorns and butterflies, but I'd like to see at least some of the main cast receive a satisfying conclusion.

Oh, I'm not pretending the series doesn't have its flaws. The Christ analogues were stupid, the pretentious meandering bullcrap of the last two episodes was pointless and overly long and tons of elements didn't have the expansion they need. And I won't pretend that Anno had a plan because frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm just saying that your interpretation of Eo E isn't thematically satisfying for me and for you to say that mine is bullshit feels a bit condescending when we don't have all the facts and there's no official word on it.

edited 12th Mar '12 10:06:51 PM by DeviousRecital

Well no, its that they HAVE a future; that this isn't the end. That they can come back and face the reality of the outside world. It's definitely melancholy, much moreso than the series' ending, but its not hopeless.

Going back to the last two episodes, it honestly makes a lot more sense now, and sorta fitting for whats going on to Shinji. And what Christ analogs are you talking about? Besides the gnostic cosmology of the Angels, there's really no christian themes to the show.

edited 12th Mar '12 10:29:29 PM by Scherzo09

No, there aren't. That's what I'm saying. Stuff like Unit-03 being flown to Japan while crucified was pure Faux Symbolism bullcrap. Anno probably only put it in to draw attention to the show.

The staff's gone on record saying that they just thought it looked cool.

Which is another one of my problems with the show. I love anime that use symbolism. Ones like Serial Experiments Lain, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Ghost In The Shell, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and FLCL are all some of my favorite animes and ones which I give high praise to as a result. The problem with Eva is that while, yes the reference is there, the meaning, the "joke" I guess one could say, isn't.

For all the Christian symbolism included, what did it all mean? Is it supposed to represent the post-apocalyptic nature of the series? The whole idea of man trying to become God, even through killing off his messengers? Is it due to the whole message of reaching out to others, as Christianity is connected to that idea? Or is it just a bunch of stuff that the writers think is cool? Sadly, it's the latter, which really makes all of the symbolism psycho-babble. You could try searching for a hidden meaning, but unlike Lain, Madoka, Ghost, and FLCL, where the symbolism actually does matter and reflects the themes and nature of the show, here, all you will find is a dead-end if you try to search for a deep theme or meaning within the symbols.

It is a bit funny, that the symbolism is one of the things the show is known for, as well as part of its controversy, when it is really nothing but a fatty additive.

edited 12th Mar '12 11:44:27 PM by LDragon2

I think just drawing attention to the show is a legitimate goal. I for one was absolutely captivated by those cross-shaped explosions, right off the bat.

Look, I'm really getting tired of this interpretation of Instrumentality, like it was some numb pleasure ball or something. Read Promethea to onderstand how an Apocalypse, a Revelation, a destruction of all lies and bringing down of all ego barriers, can still work awesomely. It's by Alan Moore, so brace yourselves.

edited 13th Mar '12 1:01:38 AM by TheHandle

I prefer having a sense of identity, thank you.

The themes are more about the existential struggles of the characters than some overarching 'theme' to the universe. I actually really like the Cosmology of NGE; stuff like the fact this is all because of a Bureaucratic fuckup on the FAR's behalf and that the planet is really the Angels' and we're not supposed to be here; but all that is secondary to the main focus of the show; showing how people come to grips with reality.

Instrumentalized characters had their sense of identity intact, I think. They were talking to each other, after all. The only thing that they seemed to be fuzzy about was how much was they themselves as they were, they as they saw themselves, and they as others saw them. You could say that being able to be all those aspects of your personality at the same time is actually being the whole of yourself, like being able to see yourself from all directions at once, including inside. Like an aboriginal painting.