The Military Thread

my fucking God, HOW HARD IS IT TO NOT MIX COOLANT AND BREATHING AIR?!

I swear, whoever made that mistake deserves to be shot, I see no sane reason, hell not even sane, no reason AT ALL for those to mix.

@Charcoal filters....What do they have these guys ON?

EDIT- THEY'RE DEPLOYING THEM NEAR IRAN WHEN THE PILOTS CAN'T BREATHE?!?!?!

...what is wrong with people...◊

edited 9th May '12 6:42:15 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

Heh. Seems like the only Raptors ever that were good to fly were in the F22 Interceptor game I played fifteen years ago, 8-)

Brings back memories of killing ZSU 23-4s with AMRAA Ms...

I still have a copy of F-22 Total Air War, now free on the Internet. My memories were that of getting shot out of the air by ZSU-23-4s every time I dared to venture below 10000 feet. (Also cheering out loud when I managed to catch a Vulcan battery unawares and strafed him with my cannon.)

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

Barkey, you're so verbose. Yet you're so eloquent that I find I don't mind. But, well, you talk a lot about the atmosphere in your unit, you think it's representative of the US military as a whole?

If you also make all-Christian units you could actually get Sisters of Battle. The Sandy Claws would be frightened, I can tell you that.

@Everyone in the thread: I sort of see that the military works kinda like the Something Awful fora when it comes to opinion and such: if you aren't in the majority you'll be dogpiled into silence by everyone (that's what I understood) and you have to give-and-take shit all the time, show you're always ready and casual about it and that it doesn't really affect you. But, suppose someone enlisted with a very civilian attitude to making friends and getting stuff done:

• Doesn't criticize, condemn, or complain.
• Gives honest and sincere appreciation.
• Always tries to portray things in the most positive light.
• Never shows others that he or she is not interested in what they have to say.
• Shows genuine interest in other people.
• Smiles often and widely.
• Calls you by your name often, remembers everyone's names.
• Is a good listener and encourage others to talk about themselves. Also, knows to keep stuff to themselves and to shut up when it's time to. Doesn't judge.
• Talks in terms of the other guys' interests.
• Makes the other guys feel important – and does it sincerely.
• Avoids arguments
• Shows respect for the other guys' opinions. Never outright says "You're Wrong.", cuz he figures he might be wrong him or herself and it's worth it to give others a listen.
• If he's wrong himself, he admits it quickly and emphatically.

When he's your equal and wants to make a deal or get you to do something he:

• Always begins interactions in a friendly way.
• Starts with questions to which the other guy will answer yes.
• Lets the others do a great deal of the talking.
• Lets the other guy feel the idea is his or hers.
• Tries honestly to see things from the other guy's point of view.
• Is sympathetic with the other guy's ideas and desires.
• Appeals to the nobler motives of whoever he's dealing with.
• Hams it up sometimes, to make a point or just for fun.
• Likes to throw down a challenge, and to pick one up.

Also, what if someone in authority behaves like this:

• Begins with praise and honest appreciation.
• Calls attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
• Talks about their own mistakes before criticizing the other guy.
• Asks questions instead of giving direct orders. (I don't see that one going down well unless it's the President talking to Generals or something. I've read some letters Abraham Lincoln wrote to some very incompetent generals, it has to be seen to be believed how incredibly polite and nice the guy was)
• Lets the other guy save face.
• Praises every improvement.
• Gives the other guy a fine reputation to live up to.
• Uses encouragement. Make the faults seem easy to correct.
• Makes the other person happy about doing what they suggest.

So, what would they be doing wrong? What should they change?

On another topic

That's a more important role than you could believe. You know, during the War of Kippur, the Egyptian planes could never leave the ground. Sabotage, you see. How could that happen? More importantly, how would you go about preventing it?

From what I hear you could almost substract the "like": I hear soldiering and officering tend to be family traditions.

edited 10th May '12 12:43:16 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Yes. Materiel squad, headquarters and service company, tank batallion 183. (Don't have the time to do much more than lurk around here, though, and enjoy the reading.)

You're a grease monkey?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I've heard that too, and read many examples. The family of James Blunt*

is a rather extreme example. According to The Other Wiki, they've been a Military Family since the 10th Century.

Keep Rolling On

... Yeah, don't judge a man by his falsetto...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Yeah, I know how important my job is, the rest of the AF has the problem.

Every unit has its own atmosphere, the sort of overall feeling that comes from the people in it and how they behave. I've known plenty of nice people in the military, we're not all rough and tumble types. One guy I know(Who threw me over his shoulder and carried me around screaming "WHOOOOOOOOOOOO" yesterday) is probably the nicest and most honest human being I've ever met. He's a big tall cornfed giant dude from Ohio, former marine, but the friendliest dude in existence. Always there with a sympathetic ear, always there to give advice. Damn good guy.

Part of it is because we're a Guard unit, but I can pretty much give the life story on almost all the guys in our unit, or at least assign them basic characteristics that dominate their behavior. Guard units have pro's and con's. One of the Pro's is that we're extremely tight knit, because we basically ain't going anywhere. We only transfer bases if we want to, meaning that I'll probably spend the rest of my career, sans deployments, exercises, and TDY's, in my current unit, all the way to retirement. I'll be with the same guys the entire way, having some retire and some be recruited along the way.

And yeah, it is inbred. My dad was the Operations NCO when I came to the unit off active duty, he retired a year later. We've got a married couple, as well as two brothers. Then a couple who are dating.(my partner and one of my friends actually) And that's just in my unit.

So yeah, we're inbred as hell.

There's probably enough of you types it don't end up cauising no real problems, though.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

It's a mixed bag, not everyone will have the same perspective as me by far. Part of the reason I'm the way I am is because I was bred for it. I was an Army brat for a few years, then in my later years my dad would bring me to drill, or all the guys in the unit would come to the house and party since my dad was sort of the master of hooliganism and ceremonies in the unit.

I went my own way and did active duty for a few years, and then came into the unit when I was done. I've known some of these people since childhood. So that's responsible for some of my perspective. It's all I've ever really known in my adult life, and I know that often colors my perception of it.

I guess the reason I share my perspective so much, is because when I was growing up and wanted to know more about what the military was actually like, I could never get anyone to give me good details, they assumed I wouldn't understand. I never had anyone really describe what it was like to me, so I figure I can give people one slice of that big ass pie if I try to make people understand when they ask.

Sometimes I hate it though. After a deployment or exercise, we all have cabin fever, hate eachother, and just want to go home. If it was really bad, like my most recent trip was, I'll be having all these enamoured thoughts about how green the grass is on the civilian side, and what it would be like if I were able to just cut all ties with the military and be "free". I usually come around after I've had time for the butthurt to heal.

edited 10th May '12 6:10:26 AM by Barkey

It ain't so hot on this side, Barkey. Keep at it, bro.

Logistics. In the pre-transformation Bundeswehr, materiel groups supplied the batallion with everything that wasn't food, fuel or ammo. In wartime, we'd have carried spare parts for about two tanks (everything except hulls and turrets) and the smaller vehicles. And we'd have shuttled stuff from the rearward support guys to the fighting companies and the batallions' maintenance platoon.

So one of my troops came by, and we were smoking out behind the gatehouse, and I feel I've came to a wonderful analogy.

He has a specific NCO that he absolutely despises. Honestly, I hate the guy too. He treated me like shit when I was lower in the ranks, and he treats all airmen like shit, frankly.

But we were on the subject of comparing it to a family, and I told him something I would paraphrase as such: NCO's are like the older brothers in your family. Some of them are responsible, and good, and will give you shit when you screw up, because they want you to stop screwing up. Others will torture you sadistically and endlessly, only because they are bigger and stronger than you. The second category have low self-esteem and a napoleon complex, and probably list "torturing small woodland creatures" as their favorite childhood hobby.

The latter being The Neidermeyer then?

edited 10th May '12 11:45:22 AM by Minister

It's your God, they're your rules, you go to hell." - Mark Twain

Sort of. Kind of an NCO version.

Not given the level of responsibility an officer has, more that they get their rocks off on messing with people lower on the totem pole than them. I know an NCO who seriously enjoys doing this. Nobody likes him, and he's got Napoleon syndrome out the ass. He always put a ton of focus on me though because he worshipped the ground my father walked on, and he's the reason he is because he thinks he's emulating him.

My dad was a good NCO, but he was a complete prick in a lot of ways to. He always made sure the mission was taken care of, but he was a predatory asshole to people who weren't veteran members of the unit. This NCO does the latter part, but not the former. My dad clawed his way to SNCO because of the former, and didn't make E-8 because of the latter.

So unfortunately he's always sort of had an interest in me, like he feels that fucking with me is somehow an obligation to my dad to build me up and make me into an awesome troop. What he doesn't realize is that when I talk to my dad about it, he pretty much goes "Oh that guy? Didn't know him too well, looked like he had short-man syndrome out the ass." While Sgt Dickbreath acts like they were the best of pals, and probably has a statue of him in his house somewhere.

Kurushio: Sounds like a Tech Supply unit - spare parts and widgets for the maintenance units.

Our DS (direct support) Company had a Tech Supply platoon; they were usually the most ate up platoon in the entire unit. Only thing they had going on was that their Platoon Leader, a fresh butter-bar right out of some small college somewhere, was really nice and let her NCO's do their job without interfereing with them. She also was down to earth and fairly nice. Our PL was hard-charging and wanted to show up all of our NCO's all the time with how much he knew. So he was irritating as all hell in garrison, but useful in the field when we played Infantry once in a while. He usually left our section (C&E) alone, as he was too busy policing up the Ground Support section of the Platoon to worry about us electronic widget-heads.

Plus our Shop Officer, a crusy old Warrant, would give him crap if he threw his weight around in our shop. Prior-enlisted Warrant Officers are cool.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

I wish we had warrant officers in the AF. I hear about the role of MP Warrants in the Army and just drool at their job duties. It'd be like being a patrol cop forever, but being a patrol cop who can tell 2/3rds of the base to go fuck itself when you make CWO.

Logistics is the basis of how all armies work. Get it right, you win. Get it wrong, like Napoleon not giving his horses shoes that would work in winter, and you lose.

On the question of military service outside of the US, then yep, I was part of that. I did not serve in the Boer War, 8-), you cheeky people. Though I did, as the vernacular of the time would have it, know some of the guys who were responsible for Christ's crucifixion.

And how the fuck can any armed force not have Warrant Officers in it? Seriously? Mind blown.

edited 10th May '12 3:21:11 PM by TamH70

^ WAG, Interservice Rivalry guess: In the army that the USAF broke off of, WOs can be pilots. Obviously the USAF is better than the Army, so they had to have higher requirements for flying. And since the USAF is primarily (on paper, anyway) about flying, there's no need for halfway-officers in other tasks.

Or something along those lines, I should be asleep right now.

All your safe space are belong to Trump

Warrants in the Army definitely have it good.

They're SMEs at whatever subject they like enough to become a warrant for, and that's pretty much all they do for their entire career. That's why so many Aviation officers become warrants after they do their company time and would otherwise move up to staff and not be able to fly anymore.

They also can cruise the line between officer and enlisted, being able to act like senior NCOs and officers at the same time, if that makes any sense. They still salute officers, but at least for me it's different returning the salute and saying "Chief," or "Morning, Chief" or whatever instead of just grunting, saying "How's it going, man" or whatever the response to the salute saying thing is. In my current unit it's "Polar Bears, sir!" with "Pro Patria" as the response.

edited 10th May '12 5:18:22 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

Well, there's essentially a requirement in the Air Force that to get into certain key positions, you have to have been a pilot.

Wanna be a base commander? Have to have been a pilot.

Want to be Chief of Staff of the AF? A MAJCOM commander? Gotta be a pilot.

I mean there's still specialized positions out there for different career fields. We had General Hertog as our top cop for a while, I got to meet her while I was deployed, she was cool as fuck. It's nice knowing that the tip top of your chain of command(as far as I give a fuck anyway) is cool to just sit and chat with.

Anyone in SF admired her because she was the top cop, and she had always been a cop from butter bar on up to being a brigadier general. The guy we just had appointed as top cop doesn't even wear a fucking beret because he's never been security forces. I hear he's a great guy and all, but still...

Anyhow, there have been limited amounts of Warrant Officers in the Air Force throughout the years. The only ones that I've ever heard of us having have been crew chiefs for our special operations CSAR birds.

@Tam

If I remember right you're a Jack Reacher reader like myself. A shortform description of her is that she's essentially a female version of General Garber. Cops in the AF respect her more than the Chief of Staff practically. Or rather she was, but elevated out of the position in late 09 to become the head of the 2nd Air Force. The respect is still there from the people who were midway through their careers when she was in charge though. It's kind of the narrow band of years where she was in charge while you were a developing troop that inspire that kind of respect. Plus the fact that back then she was a milf with a beret and a star who'd been a cop for well into two decades. She's also been the commander of the training group Security Forces Academy falls into, then the commander of the base which that group belongs to, not to mention she's been Top Cop almost 3 different times, when usually it's a one time gig.

edited 10th May '12 5:31:44 PM by Barkey

Remember when they found the FBI training their guys that all Muslims were the agents of evil regardless of how they practiced? The assholes who started that shit infected our military with the same garbage.

Our own homegrown fanatics are rearing their ugly heads. Personally the guys pushing this shit sound fucking insane and need the boot. What do you guys think?

Courtesy of guys like Army Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley Spreading this shit to officers coming to learn from him.

The BS Reply from the top dogs How the fuck could they ot know this shit was going on? This paints our leadership as either fanatical loons or incomptent dipshits.

Who watches the watchmen?

More anti-Semitism from high-ranking American officials, and yes, Islam is a religion founded by a Semitic people, the clue is in the name. And there will be people lapping it up, in exactly the same fashion that folks like them lapped up Hitler's brand of the same thing in the Twenties and Thirties. This is how this shit starts, people.

To be fair, I'm not exactly well disposed towards Muslims after my collective experiences with Islam.

But to be even more fair, I'm not a huge fan of Christians either, so it's all fair game.

I was talking to a buddy of mine who came through the gate today about politics. He started talking about Obama's "Flip Flopping" on the gay marriage issue. I told him the issue didn't really concern me but that as such I didn't really mind if gays got married or saw how it was our business. I told him I'll probably vote for Obama because all the conservative candidates are Christian zealots who want to make everybody in this country live like Christians.

Then I told him, word for word, that I'd "Put my boot on the throat of any goddamn Christian who tries to step on my toes or infringe on my way of life, just like with Muslims. Y'all are no better than them in my book."

That's a line I use with my hyper-religious Airman all the time when we have religious discussions and he strays too far into the "America is a Christian Nation that should have Christian rules" territory. I start ranting about boots on throats and that people like him are in danger of becoming a domestic enemy, and we all know what the Oath of Enlistment says about those.

I do think Muslims are inherently more violent than Christians though. Christians are just more manipulative, and unfortunately I'm stuck in the same foxhole as them.

edited 10th May '12 9:38:06 PM by Barkey