The Military Thread

Two pages ago, I know you were joking about the whole "using foreign planes" thing Rufus, but national pride (perhaps of the misplaced variety) insists on pointing out that while the basic Harrier design was British, the AV-8B (the -8A was just a redesignation of the original British design) had some significant changes from the original Harrier by McDonnell-Douglas, and was primarily produced at MD's plant in St. Louis.

(Dammit, new page.)

edited 18th Apr '12 9:22:29 AM by Nohbody

And I wouldn't be bothered if in the, oh so very much unlikely, case that the Rafale caught the eye of some USN higher-ups, the final plane would be completely revamped with U.S. avionics and structural changes while being built in the U.S. (IIRC, I said something like that, about putting a AN/APG-whatever and some other systems). Probably a larger plane since the U.S. supercarriers are what their name implies: larger. It would probably be a completly different plane, but using the basic airframe would reduce the delays by at least five to ten years, especially as the avionics are already ready (put those of the F-22 and some of the Pigeon, its avionics being the only thing of quality about the -35, IMHO), while giving pure kinematic and payload performance the -18 and the -35 are unlikely to have. Honestly, I wouldn't deny being interested to buy a "Super Rafale" with some U.S. improvements to the airframe. For example, all the nice little bonuses of the Silent Eagle (weapon pods, stealthier frame, etc.), applied to a Rafale, would make it a pure killer, especially in the numbers the USN could afford to buy.

A USN Rafale with a longer airframe with slightly bigger wings (more fuel and maybe even more payload), an AN/APG-77, the 360° vision system of the F-35, probably more powerful engines, stealth weapon pods, thrust vectoring... Even then, I'm 99% sure it would be way cheaper than the Pigeon while being ready to fly in less than three years. It would be a strike/air superiority plane with first-tier self-protection systems, reduced RCS to almost stealth (and with the kind of ECM it's fielding, SAM systems are simply screwed), probably the most agile plane ever fielded (the basic fighter is already pretty nimble, it would be a dogfight nightmare with TVC the U.S. designed for the Raptor), heavy payload capability (10-ton of weaponry for the basic airframe, and I guess the USN would enlarge it, so maybe 12 to 15 ton), rated for every kind of mission one can think of. Honestly, you guys have the tech and the industry to make a good little plane perfect. At least on the paper, since I'm just throwing every cool tech I can find on one thing. But, still...

By the way, who here thinks the whole "stealth" as it's being fielded by various countries is more a temporary advantage than a true game-changer? I mean, with the upgrades in optic sensors and more capable radars, are those fighters going to stay truly invisible against their foes?

edited 18th Apr '12 9:57:51 AM by RufusShinra

On the whole badger thing, and as for ugly but functional planes, badger would actually be a good name for an ugly plane. Sure, they might not be the most aesthetically pleasing animals, but they'll still wreck your shit.

Of course going by that logic Platypus would be a good name for an ugly plane. Badgers at least have cuteness going for them. At least until you see them in the wild, and realise they're fecking huge.

There is, of course, another Badger: The Tupolev Tu-16.

There was some stuff about how the prototype M16's were well-liked by the troops in Vietnam, but problems only started to show up after 1) they were mass-adopted by rank-and-file infantrymen, 2) said infantrymen were inadeqately trained, and 3) the ammunition changed, and the propellant in that ammo fouled the weapon up horribly, exasperated by the lack of training.

Given that the M14 had its own problems (heavy, uncontrollable at full-automatic, warping of the wood in the tropical humidity make it inaccurate), it was little wonder why the military took the initial user feedback - positive feedback, at that - and adopted the M16 as the front-line rifle and got rid of the M14.

The M14 reminds me of the N1892 Krag. Great idea, not so great execution, out-done by Mausers, which led directly to us designing the M1903 Springfield, itself a Mauser-derivative.

Wouldn't wood warping have affected AK-47s in the same climate as well?

The action of an AK isn't bedded in wood like the M14. The stock and foregrip being a little warped wouldn't be a big deal.

That? Pfft, it dosn't even go super-sonic. plus it's pretty ugly.

Floatplanes tend to be ugly, yes. Form follows function, in this case, the ability to float.

True.

The catilina's pretty cool though, I've liked that since i got one in an Axis And Allies pack.

Considering they named a tank "the Wombat", I'm surprised they object.

The laser Guided Rockets are heading to the sand box AH-1W's and Huey's to be armed with the guided rocket pods for the Corps. Any platfrom that can carry the hydra can carry these guided rockets.

Basically they are the ideal combination of off the shelf munitions with a known tech. I have no clue why the hell it took 10 years to get them ready though. They are the cheaper answer to the mirco missile solution to reducing munition impact foot print.

edited 18th Apr '12 7:16:56 PM by TuefelHundenIV

I was wondering what had become of that program. Glad to see it's working.

I'm curious if they're going to drop some smarter guidance packages in them at any point.

Wouldn't surprise me if they did. What would surprise me is if they didn't. Lots of cheap guided rockets versus one big expensive Hellfire missile.

On the stealth issue, Russia had surface to air radar capable of beating it for decades before the F117 ever got fielded. And unless they manage somehow to make the airframe match the ambient temperature and do the same for jet engine exhausts then even the B2 Spirit is vulnerable to detection using infra-red. Hell, you could probably do it using Magnetic Anomaly Detection.

edited 19th Apr '12 12:11:17 AM by TamH70

Since its not worth a thread of its own, just thought I'd like to share here: India has joined the ICBM club.

[1]

edited 18th Apr '12 9:39:03 PM by FFShinra

Congratulations, Delhi. You have made the dictators in Peking* even more annoyed at you. This is going to end well.

• I dislike Pinyin so will not use it when writing Chinese names.

I don't get the whole India vs. China thing. Can someone give me the nutshell idiot version?

Basically, they've been strategic rivals ever since the 1960s, when they had a brief war over a border dispute. China's naval rise to power is worrying most of the countries around it, and this includes India, which is building up its own fleet. Also, China backs Pakistan, which annoys India.

It comes to a matter of overlapping spheres of influence.

Indeed.

Not really. Beijing isn't Islamabad.

But if you take a missile and a nuclear device and combine the two of them to make a nuclear missile and give that to a general he will start making plans to toss it at someone. And one of those someones for India is China. Which the Chinese are not going to be happy with. At all.

edited 19th Apr '12 3:40:06 AM by TamH70

I just realized that Balmung, last page, used the words "fuck" and "frak" in the same sentence. I find that very amusing for some reason.

So what's so awful about the F35? I admit I don't know all about it, but everything I do know points towards it being a super-plane. I'm guessing that's all just hype or something.

Doesn't it have a crappy ability to turn compared to things like the F22 or something?

Likely because the relevant numbers that determine flight performance on a modern fighter plane like the thrust/weight ratio, top speed, etc, are mostly not that good on the F-35, especially when compared to the F-22. That and its costs have ballooned to absurd levels, all while the Air Force is getting absolutely no use from them.

Any particular reason why? I just find Wade-Giles hilariously inaccurate compared to Pinyin. It does not even remotely resemble how Chinese is actually pronounced, and not to mention can easily cause confusion.

And they plan to replace the A-10 with it which pisses off everyone except the guy that decided that.