The Over-Committee Meeting Room

Welcome to the meeting room for the TV Tropes The TV Show Over-Committee. Everyone is welcome to post here.

The current voting members of the Over-Committee:

• Ironeye (Committee Head—deals with maintaining canon and procedural matters)
• arks
• Karalora
• Some Sort Of Troper
• Bobby G

We may or may not add more voting members in the future. The committee will need to decide how to handle ties in the cases where only an even number of members can vote.

The committee follows the Rule of 48: if the discussion has stalled out or does not appear to be going anywhere, a committee member may call for the rest of the committee to vote within the next 48 hours so that the issue can be resolved. (It should generally be clear what position each member is taking, so hopefully the Rule of 48 won't need to be enforced.)

I will be updating this post with the committee's decisions (and vote tallies, if no consensus is reached). Italics indicates a sub-point that is still being debated.

Officially Settled (Formal Vote)

Let's Go With It (A majority seems to agree)

• Strongly limit Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny (4-0)
  • More leeway for fictites (2-0)

edited 9th Jan '10 2:26:40 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

This is the queue where future topics of discussion will wait until other matters get resolved. I'll be updating this regularly.

• The Eighth Wall—keep it or cut it?
• The creation of Metafictional Dynamics Committee to deal with the exact rules for the way the Fourth Wall and Eighth Wall work
• Various plot-important nonsense (which will allow me to fix the plot so that it actually makes sense)
  • Wikipedia—cut or keep?
  • Trope-tan—cut or keep?
  • Xanatos—cut or keep?
  • What to do with Section IV?
  • How do we want the story to end?
• In-jokes—how often? how essential to the plot? how much in defiance of reasonable sense?
• Tone, and how much the story runs on Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny (this should probably be the first thing we figure out)
  • If the show depends on Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny, just how much can we do this in defiance of making the plot and setting reasonable?
• Fixing the Troper team
  • What is the tolerance for troper-based characters to not be on the TV Tropes team? Conversely, what is the tolerance for non-troper-based characters to be on the TV Tropes team?
  • How much will other troper teams (the non-North-American and non-European ones) be featured?
  • How much should the TV Tropes team be balanced for the tasks they have to face? This ties into Eddie only recruiting perhaps half of the "original" lineup for the North-American team, with the rest just sorta tagging along...and things only get worse from there.
• How much fictite tech/magic do the tropers get their hands on? Not including much seems a waste of a premise, but even hinting at possibly including more gets people to channel their inner munchkin.
• How will character subplots tie into the finale? For most of the characters (and the finale as-is), their stories either cease to be relevant long before the finale, or their subplots are only implied to eventually get resolved some time later. We don't need to screw with the timeline just to make sure that every subplot gets tied up at the same time, but it would be good to have some sort of ending for each major character beyond making their scheduled appearances in the action scenes. Obviously, this ties into how the show will end...

So, I think that should be enough to keep us busy for a while. Where shall we begin?

edited 8th Jan '10 9:58:45 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

As for Rule of Cool vs. Rule of Funny. I'd say we go mostly "realistic" with Rule of Funny having more sway than Rule of Cool (even then both only have a small amount of sway.)

I just don't want characters to be pulling abilities out of their asses to win the day. However, if a long string of coincidences works to embarrass our heroes, I'd be perfectly okay with that. (Rule of Funny, not Deus Angst Machina).

edited 9th Jan '10 9:44:39 AM by arks

Video Game Census. Please contribute.

We should have an Under-Committee room, just for the underlings.

♥♥II'GSJQGDvhhMKOmXunSrogZliLHGKVMhGVmNhBzGUPiXLYki'GRQhBITqQrrOIJKNWiXKO♥♥

I agree with arks. Rule of Funny is a good thing to have from time to time, but we should try to be reasonably realistic. Rule of Cool should be used sparingly, if at all.

However, I also think that both Rule of Funny and Rule of Cool should be marginally more permissable when demonstrated by fictites.

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Concerning the Eighth Wall, what if we were to remove it as a plot element but keep a few references to it in a subtle Sequel Hook-like fashion?

And I agree with the general sentiment of using Rule of Funny and Rule of Cool sparingly, if for no other reason than to make them more effective when we do use them, via the same principle as Precision F-Strike.

edited 9th Jan '10 11:04:53 AM by Karalora

I also favor minimal use of Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny. (I suppose this really isn't a surprise, considering all the times I've brought up very minor issues because something just didn't make sense.) Of course, fictites should be able to pull that off in some cases, since they do warp the laws of physics (but to what degree will be for another committee to decide).

Otherwise, in terms of tone, well, what are we going for? I know Kara has suggested that we treat this like an Adventure series. If I were left unchecked, the story would end up quite a bit darker than that whenever the plot kicked in. (This is why it's really good for you all to overrule me.)

Re: The Eighth Wall: We really have three options:

• Plot-important
• Setting Detail
• Gone

I really don't mind what we do so long as it's not the first, since cutting it out of the plot will make things a whole lot more sensible.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

In terms of the tone of the actual plot, I do feel that some degree of darkness is necessary if we want to incorporate some serious drama and pose some deep ethical questions, which I think we should. Preferably not quite so bleak as the third season of Torchwood, but, say, maybe around as dark as the first Fullmetal Alchemist anime, if necessary. I think we need to bear in mind that this is an Earn Your Happy Ending show, so in the end we want to be reasonably uplifting.

For the actual episodes, I think it would be best just to decide the tone of each on a case-by-case basis, with episodes at diverse points along the broad spectrum of lighthearted and fun <—> extremely bleak and cynical, including the extremes. I would like to see Tear Jerkers, Crowning Moments of Heartwarming, scenes that will have viewers puzzling over them hours later and scenes that make them laugh out loud.

I vote we keep the Eighth Wall as a setting detail, but I also vote we make it so that it's entirely unknown to viewers what's behind there. I think Cosmic Horrors and Reality Warpers, being fictional characters, should exist behind the Fourth Wall, not the Eighth, and just never come through unless the plot or episode plot calls for one to do so.

edited 9th Jan '10 11:59:59 AM by BobbyG

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Yeah, the current Fourth Wall rules call for them to be behind that Wall, but unable to come over because they are too powerful—too incompatible with the rules of Reality, if you will. Of course (crazy idea I just thought of) if the fictites and rifts are warping Reality with their presence, perhaps it won't be too long before Azathoth comes a-knockin'.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Ooh, what if we used that to create a sense of urgency? The tropers need to seal up the Wall sooner rather than later, or else Lovecraftian monstrosities will start appearing on Earth.

edited 9th Jan '10 12:50:12 PM by BobbyG

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That could be quite useful, I think. Of course, the tropers don't set out to seal up the Wall in the first place, so there'd have to be some event that sets them on that path. This also gives us other opportunities for interesting actions later in the series after this is revealed. What if some characters decided to destroy all fictites and fictite tech in order to prevent the end of the world? The fictites aren't really people, after all...or are they? Would effort better be spent trying to reinforce the Fourthtress? It's becoming harder and harder due to more and more rifts appearing, after all. What if people using their C-Day powers also caused problems...and more people are discovering and using their powers every day. Hmmm...what would The Big Bad's motivation be in that case?

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

This is beginning to sound like a world-scale game of Arkham Horror.

With every expansion.

-*whooooooosh* Nin nin! [1]◊

Wow, it really does.

Anyway, weird idea: what if there isn't a Big Bad? The situation outlined in my last post is more conducive to (almost) everyone having the same end goal, just different ways to go about it. Of course, someone like Kefka Palazzo would try to speed up the process, making characters like him potential final villains...

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

I like that. I like the idea of the show not having any one Big Bad. It's different.

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Hem. If I may suggest we hold our horses and point them in another direction, I think that the basics, fundamentals to TV show making, points we really need to address first should be:

• Episode length
• Season length
• #Seasons
• Format (We definately going for my idea or what?)
• Target Audience
  • Tone, joke level, convolution will all be ruled by this one point if you think about it.
• Animation style
• Approximate character numbers

Stuff that would cost money if we had any. Stuff that is highly dependent on our resources and that is going to highly restrict our options of what we can reveal. If for some bizarre fucking reason we decide we want to be able to sell the idea to the BBC and decide to make 3 seasons of the typical British length of 6, 30 minutes long, then we aren't going to have the time to satisfactorily deal with 24 characters getting into the minutae of the Eighth wall. We also have to consider how many people are loading on, their attitude and enjoyment and the fact that I can't come up with a third point to nicely balance this sentence.

It's probably all come up before but it would be a far grander thing if we were all certain and in agreement. Hopefully it will be quick and painless to cover them.

Oh yes and "More leeway for fictite"- explaination and deconstruction should be part of the fun and if we have already got main characters with superpowers we're probably using the right level of Suspension of Disbelief for them already so I wouldn't say they get more leeway.

Well, most importantly, are we serious about making this? None of the animators stayed around for more than three posts. The only artist we have left is Fawriel (and doesn't he have a webcomic he's busy on?). Half the writing team either officially or unofficially quit the moment school started up again in the fall. For all of the enthusiasm about people voicing the characters they created, how many ended up sending in auditions? 3? 4? Pretty much everyone not working on characters or story dropped out after a week of not being told what to do. At this point, a mid-quality web-comic covering the events of the first two episodes would be more than we could handle.

edited 9th Jan '10 5:37:26 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

So, uhh, yeah, I don't want to be a downer and all, but the show has, for all practical purposes, been dead in the water for months. My current best guess at staff is four voice actors, our VA director, one artist, two writers, two composers (with wildly divergent styles), one soundtrack manager, and approximately 15 story contributors with varying degrees of commitment (counting people multiple times if they fit multiple categories). (I'm not counting arim for anything but the last category, since he was worried about not having enough time to be a voting member of this committee, which would put both writing and voice acting out of the picture.) At this point, what sort of material could we produce? We can't use a visual medium with only one artist. We don't have enough voice actors for a radio play that isn't self-parody. About all we can do is write a story—while we only have two writers on-staff, as it were, at least two other current contributors have written up scenes for the show (one of whom posted his work and got good reviews), and I might be able to get two more...

In short, the closest we can reasonably get to producing this thing is writing scripts. What say you all?

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Unsolicited advice: Get a script done. Pulling in the other disciplines/talents depends on the script. Being done.

A script. One. Call it the pilot, if you like. A lot of people do.

All the bible work that has gone into this is nice. If it helps get a script done. So, time has come to work that first step.

All the pain and thrills of production will come after that.

edited 10th Jan '10 10:50:55 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

For what it's worth, I believe I could still help write scripts and possibly do voice acting. The task that I don't think I'm up for is restructuring the show from the ground up, which appears to be the chosen course of action. If you come to me and say, "Here's the plot we're going for and here's the list of characters," I'd be glad to work on episode scripts.

I believe I said, just before everything came to a grinding halt, that our best bet was to write a few scripts for the material we had and see how the project developed from there.

Just so you know, I'm still up for voice-acting, and I'd be happy to do a bit of writing, if I'd be allowed.

While I'd agree that we/you (dunno which, since I'm kind of an outsider at the moment) should start off with a few scripts and go from there, it seems to me that we/you don't even know what said scripts should be like.

So, what I suggest is: anyone currently on board and willing to do some of the writing writes a script. We decide what characters will be used (though they wouldn't have to include all of them), but apart from that, everyone does it in their own, different way. One person could do a silly, idealistic script which uses the rule of funny more often than it uses commas, while another could do a dark, cynical story with enough Wangst to make Robert Smith want to slap it round its metaphorical face , and others could do anything inbetween. The characters could be going on a mission for 30 minutes, running from a monster for 45 minutes, doing some paperwork for 2 hours, or anything. They shouldn't have too much to do with overarching plots or major arcs, but apart from that, let them run wild.

Then, we/you take all these scripts, look at them and just see what works and what doesn't. We probably wouldn't use them, obviously, but, at the very least, we can see if the basic idea is even workable (which it probably is, but it's good to be sure).

More unasked-for advice:

Brainstorming has gone on long enough. The project is into "analysis paralysis." You need to appoint a Boss Dog, "break" the pilot, assign acts to specific writers/writer-teams, and assign you-will-be-skull-fucked-if-you-are-late due dates for the acts.

TV series, movies, plays, novels — everything that gets "made" — has a Boss Dog. Has had a Boss Dog for literally thousands of years. Because it works, and nothing else does. The project needs an auteur.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

That would be Ironeye, I think.

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Wow, if I had known that making pessimistic posts would get this much in the way of responses, including from the  ^{big man himself}

*Squee*, I would have done it far sooner. So, answering SSOT's questions based on what we currently have been going with:

• ~42 mins.
• 20-26 episodes
• 6, plus or minus 2
• No damn clue
• Core audience: tropers; Secondary audience: 13-113 year old nerds (based on previously decided allowable levels of language and obscure references...though we have in previous drafts had some thematic elements that could be a bit rough for middle schoolers...)
• No damn clue
• Variable; the first season starts with 6 main characters + 8 secondary characters who show up regularly around the base but don't have any apparent depth, and it ends with 7 main characters + 11 secondary (+4 Chekhov's Gunmen)—this is only counting the goods guys, by the way. In later seasons, this balloons up to ~13 main characters with ~8 secondary characters (again only counting the heroes), which as some people have noted, would be quite a bit to handle—note that this is one of the reasons I've really been pushing Cast Speciation and giving each character a distinctive style...

Anyway, over-committee, shall we appoint a Boss Dog, and if so, are there any other nominations?

edited 10th Jan '10 1:02:05 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Oh, also, we need to write a proper pilot. We currently don't have an episode outlined that actually functions as a display of how the show will operate.

• Episode 1: It's one of the darkest episodes of the series, and it's heavy on setting details/backstory instead of introducing the main cast. Incidentally, we should probably re-do this one.
• Episode 2: This one has too much exposition and too little adventure.
• Episode 3: This one only features half of the main cast at all, and even then places more focus on the one-shot character than on the main characters.
• Episode 4: While this is the first "real" episode of the series, it also skews far towards wacky comedy and only gives token introductions to half of the main cast (though they are at least featured, in contrast to episodes 1 and 3).

Of course, we can't really write a proper pilot until we fix the team so that it doesn't look like twelve different people came up with a dozen different characters that don't belong in the same show.

In an unrelated note, Pentadragon has said that he's currently too busy to work on this, and thus we have the freedom to alter his character to fit the plot.

edited 10th Jan '10 1:56:13 PM by Ironeye

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.