Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Hell, villains I've nominated myself wouldn't have counted in individual works and end up counting later due to having faked their caring moments or being engaged in Pragmatic Villainy. I'm personally of the opinion Aquamarine could count (I see her letting the Topazes go as Pragmatic Villainy) and Yellow Diamond could but probably won't.

I personally don't think YD will count either.

True. Nothing is conclusive until the character;'s arc. I would also like to point out that YD is portrayed with a degree of sympathy like BD in that both seem to be coping with PD's death in different ways. BD with the Human Zoo and YD with wanting to eliminate the Quartz and Earth so she can move on from the pain of her death.

edited 25th May '17 12:47:17 PM by username2527

Word of God is that's exactly right. Grieving a loved one is healthy. Trying to move on and focusing on something else is healthy. Blue Diamond's excessive grief and wallowing in it constantly is not. Yellow Diamond trying to pretend she feels nothing while attempting genocide as a form of therapy is definitely not.

@ Lightysnake

It says men, but it could only refer to his lower lackeys instead of his higher subordinates.

I think Blue and Yellow Diamonds are unambiguously non-qualifiers, so the only one to watch out for now is White Diamond, who could be anything ranging from Anti-Villain like them, underdeveloped non-character, or Fire Lord Ozai's Secondcoming.

@Vampireandthen's "proposal" of Ego: I...I give up. Until the rules are made clearer, stricter, and available for all to see before even going to this thread, we'll keep getting users coming onto this thread blind about the rules and conduct every so often.

edited 25th May '17 1:01:08 PM by ANewMan

I would have to agree on that.

On an unrelated note, here's a recent proposal I had made if anyone's interested: [1].

edited 25th May '17 12:59:01 PM by AustinDR

I'd give a slight yea to the Dr. Cyclops one

@ firewriter: The Birdcage will kill everyone in the kingdom. All of his inner circle are still there, many of them unconscious and subdued with no way to escape, and Doflamingo never demonstrates the slightest bit of care or concern for them. There's zero way for any of them to survive with how he set it up.

edited 25th May '17 1:21:41 PM by Lightysnake

Dr Thorkel

I also distinctly recall that Doffy said he intended to get a new, better everything, family included, afterwards. His "family" were a bunch of shiny, precious things to him in the end rather than their own individuals that he cared about, and the Undying Loyalty he demanded of them is what he weighed their worth by....and he still was going to throw them away like it was nothing.

edited 25th May '17 1:39:31 PM by ANewMan

Black Demon and Alexander Thorkel.

Also, the second villain from Xcalibur after Kwodahn... Kwodahn's Dragon for much of the series...Prince Bragan.

Who Is Bragan and What's He Do?

Bragan is the jealous younger brother of the good king Edwin and the uncle of the young prince Arthus. Wanting the throne for himself, no matter the cost, Bragan poisons his own nephew, Arthus, with a poison that will kill him in 10 years in case Bragan isn't king by that point in time. He also later tries to assassinate Lorna, the wife of Edwin, to eliminate her from the equation, however she is instead hidden away by a sorceress initially allied with Bragan who refused to kill Lorna. Bragan allies himself with Kwodahn later to take the throne. Bragan promptly has his brother murdered, murders his assassin and puts Arthus on the throne, which leaves Bragan as the Regent.

Bragan promptly begins scheming to undermine and eventually usurp Arthus. He immediately frames one of Edwinn's top knights, Erwann, for the assassination, and, when Erwann is turned to stone by Kwodahn soon after, Bragan proceeds to frame Djana, Erwann's daughter, as well, sending her on the run with the legendary sword Excalibur. Next attempting to hunt down the Book of Life, a powerful magical book that will assist him in his rule as Regent, Bragan leads an assault on a Shogi Temple, unleashing demons granted to him by Kwodahn to massacre the entire temple and kill the dozens of monks there, with the Book of Life being carted away by one Shogi Monk, Henrik, who later teams with Djana to combat Bragan and Kwodahn.

As a leader, Bragan is both malicious and incompetent, favoring military power abvoe all. This results in him starving and over-taxing the peasantry to pay for a bigger military with no real care for the people. Later, when the Green Prince Duncan refuses to totally cow to Bragan's whims, Bragan teams with Kwodahn to unleash a soul devouring demon onto Duncan's lands to attack and terrorize its occupants, with it devouring the souls of numerous people and putting them in an And I Must Scream situation before they are saved and the demon stopped by Djana. Discovering that there is a village Djana and her friends have taken up residence at, a village named Quinn that is resistant to Bragan's tyranny, Bragan makes an alliance with one of the villagers, Erin, promising her that, should she convince lure the strongest villagers into a trap, he will spare them and show mercy.

Bragan is lying, of course, as he plans to kill all of the warriors then take the rest of Quinn to be prisoners, however when Djana discovers Erin's treachery and thwarts the trap, Bragan decides to burn the entire forest surrounding Quinn to the ground, hoping to engulf the village and all its inhabitants in flames to end their resistance, but this plan is stopped by a redeemed Erin, who realized Bragan's treachery. Bragan later invades the Wandering City, a flying city currently in the path of a huge destructive storm, though luckily, they will be protected by their shield, powered by an energy crystal....which Bragan promptly steals, leaving the city, and many of his troops he used to invade it, to be destroyed.

While fleeing on a boat alongside the only one of his soldiers to escape alongside him, Bragan kicks the soldier overboard when the man points out that piloting the ship with just the two of them is near impossible. Luckily, Djana manages to steal the energy crystal back from Bragan and return it to the Wandering City, saving the city from destruction.

Soon after, Bragan begins raiding villages, kidnapping men from said villages under the pretense of them being "traitors", then uses them as slave labor after having monstrous snake creatures drain their life forces, leaving them mindless and slowly dying, and after they get so sick they can't be used as slaves any longer, Bragan sends them back to their villages to die painful deaths.

When the poison he used on Arthus finally kicks in and slowly begins to kill the boy, Bragan ensures that no healers of any kind can see Arthus as a precaution to make sure he dies, however with Djana allying with the Sylphs, she travels back in time and stops Arthus from ever being poisoned, saving the boy's life.

For most of the rest of the series, Bragan mainly tries to kill/continue to frame Djana and her friends, with him notably often trying to publically execute them in particularly gruesome ways when he captures them. He also weaponizes chess, uses a handsome scoundrel to lure Djana into a trap, and tries to eliminate anyone who stands against him or tries to reveal the truth of his evil. Seriously, Bragan does this stuff every single episode.

Unfortunately, Bragan's plans collapse when Queen Lorna returns....panicking, bragan kidnaps Arthus to use him for leverage. However, Kwodahn has no real loyalty to Bragan and reveals Bragan's final scheme just delivered Arthus to Kwodahn, who plans to make the boy his strongest servant yet. Bragan and Kwodahn get into an argument that ends with Bragan furiously drawing his sword on Kwodahn. Kwodahn's response is to painfully disintegrate him with his magic, finishing Bragan off for good.

Mitigating Qualities?

ZERO. Bragan exceeds the heinous standard by far with everything he gets up to. The only guy who gets up to worse is Kwodahn with far more power and malevolence. Bragan's just a jealous uncle who takes it to horrible extremes.

Conclusion?

A clear, simple keep.

And another yes to Bragan. Just as easy a keep as Kwodahn.

I didn't think I was going to think of this but there's something I think needs to be discussed.

Julio

While I at first thought he counted thanks to the resources argument I think he might need to be cut. Upon rewatching Cross Ange one of the things Ange gets angry about to Embryo is that he killed Julio (That was the main reason why she wanted to kill him for that matter until Embryo showed how bad he was). This means that he doesn't feel hatred from every character, only 99% of them. Ange generally got angry that he died implying Sympathy. Ange gives Julio the same amount of hatred as Sylvia.

edited 25th May '17 2:21:16 PM by ReynTime250

Watched Dead Men Tell No Tales. Loved it and if you liked the others you should go and see the movie. PM me for questions.

That has nothing to do with someone counting or not and isn't a valid reason to cut. Audience or character sympathy is not always relevant.

Julio doesn't do anything or feel anything to be worthy of sympathy (that he's not literally mindcontrolled into, so it doesn't count). Also, Ange was literally seconds from killing Julio herself until Embryo kill-stole.

edited 25th May '17 2:24:59 PM by Lightysnake

One thing that could be done away is Embryo having the Even Evil Has Standards pothole in Julio's writeup, it's... pretty odd to have that about a CM.

Also, why does Embryo have Well-Intentioned Extremist potholed in his...?

edited 25th May '17 2:31:29 PM by 43110

I was gonna say. It isn't actually Even Evil Has Standards considering he's worse than Julio. Julio wanted to cause genocide and is a racist/misogynist but Embryo is an Omnicidal Maniac that has practically every crime in the book. He's the main reason (There's other factors as well) that Cross Ange has as high as a heinous standard as Berserk and ASOFAI.

Also Embryo is a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. Someone should change that.

EDIT: Lightysnake I thought that if another character in the show feels sympathy for them even if they don't have any sympathetic traits it still counts as a disqualifier. (Exceptions being Goku and Frieza because Frieza decided to try and kill him back after sympathy was given to him but it's a different situation entirely, Julio was dead and Frieza wasn't)

edited 25th May '17 2:38:31 PM by ReynTime250

Yeah, though Julio has a more personal touch to his crimes, and he's as bad as he can be, resources factored in. Embryo only killed him to manipulate Ange.

At any rate, a character can be pitied or loved as long as they do nothing to merit it. God knows Batman won't stop feeling bad for the Joker in some stories.

to Thorkel and Bragan.

Thork and Bra.

We Tropers sometimes like to put tropes in, forgetting what the tropes actually mean. We tend to have precedence because we scrutinise and analyse characters to a greater extent than an excited user who wants to fit something in without thinking of it.

Or they just interpreted differently.

I tend to ignore trope pages, frankly. I find them unreliable when doing Complete Monster stuff. I have an up coming candidate who is listed as having an Even Evil Has Standards moment which is total nonsense in context. It's more "Control Freak hates Chaotic Evil" than anything.

edited 25th May '17 3:01:17 PM by PolarPhantom

'Yes' to both Thorkel and Bragan. The latter is just AWFUL given the usual crimes his type of character gets up to.

And yeah, having seen Cross Ange myself a while back (MAN that was a weird one), Julio has absolutely nothing to disqualify him. CMs CAN be pitied and even loved by characters in-universe while still being pure evil, otherwise Harley Quinn would disqualify the Joker.

As long as the villain THEMSELVES show no return care or some such? Not redeeming at all.

edited 25th May '17 3:02:40 PM by Ravok

Thorkel, Bragan, keeping Julio

edited 25th May '17 3:05:17 PM by ANewMan

Bragan.

We could probably get rid of the entire final sentence for Julio: "Even Embryo, who didn't have this in mind, finds this unacceptable, and alerts Ange to his location, allowing the betrayed sister to enact some well deserved payback."
Also, Even Evil Has Loved Ones is disqualifying; Even Evil Can Be Loved isn't.

edited 25th May '17 3:25:25 PM by ACW

Agreed, considering their both CMs, it's just confusing to try and make a statement implying someone who is evil as evil can be is disgusted with someone else whose also evil as they can be.