Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I think that makes ACW second to Fighteer for oldest frequent participant on this thread.

Alright, I've decided to propose the villain I questioned about last page. Just bear with me here.

EDIT: This first emboldened sentence is supposed to say What's the work, but I goofed up. However, I'm leaving it here just because I think it's hilarious that I messed up so bad. XD

What has he done?

Bedlam is the story of Fillmore Press. Fillmore here is a pacifistic doormat who is exceptionally good at profiling serial killers, and as such, he becomes a consultant for the local police department and together they have wacky adventures in stopping angelic madmen and mind-controlling terrorists.

Fillmore's also a "ahem" reformed mass murdererer. Which brings us to Mr. Madder Red.

Who is he?

Madder Red is a Joker Expy, and a flashback only villain.

If that's not enough info for ya, Madder here is a homicidal, sadistic psychopath who kills dozens upon dozens of people For the Evulz.

What has he done?

Madder's criminal career ran for three years, and he was always looking for ways to one-up himself in sheer brutality and depravity, and overall killed more then two thousand people.

His first major crime shown is when he shows up at a huge religious gathering of hundreds of people, with the heads of two of the church's religious leaders in tow. Madder then has his men open fire on the crowd, mowing down everyone in sight, before jumping on stage and stabbing a preacher through the eye, all while mimicing a southern preacher's way of speaking ("Ol' Pastor Red's gonna show y'all a miracle!")

Later capturing his archnemesis, The First (The Batman to his Joker), Madder takes him to a populated restaurant, whose dozens of patrons he quickly massacres before ordering filet mignon from the cowering waitress...who it's implied he then MADE into the filet mignon....

After brutally beating the First with a baseball bat, Madder flees the scene and continues his crimes until.....his final "performance".

In his final spree, Madder waltzes into a theater, takes center stage, massacres the entire audience of dozens, then poses some of their bodies in weird positions. Darn unfortunate there was a class of elementary school children on a field trip to the theater that day....

While waiting for the First to show up, Madder stalls for time by....playing Poker with the last surviving little girl. Who he proceeds to lose to. ("Sonuvabitch.")

When the First finally shows up, Madder slits the little girl's throat ("I REALLY F***ING HATE KIDS!") before the First can stop him, however with no tricks up his sleeve this time, Madder is arrested and locked away.

But D'oh, someone goofed up, and Madder releases a prerecorded video across the airwaves informing the public that he's planted six bombs inside six different schools across the city, and if he's not dead within a certain amount of time, they will all go off and kill dozens of people (Mainly children).

This, obviously, sends the city into a frenzy, as they start rioting to try and kill him, all while Madder giddily taunts the police about their weakness in not "giving the public what they want".

Something....really weird then happens. A bomb goes off in the police department, seemingly strapped the Madder's torso, as the only thing left of him is his masked face.

...or at least, that's what THEY wanted everyone to think. Turns out, this secret organization faked Madder's death so no one would be looking for him, while they kidnapped him and tried to...."fix" him, and begin performing horrifying experiments and psychological torture on Madder for ten years.

In one "experiment", the doctors lock Madder in a room, and send in a cat, hoping for him to show the capacity for companionship. Madder kills the cat. The next day, they send in another. Madder disembowels the cat. The next day they send in another.....I think you can see where this is going.

By the time the doctors literally remove Madder's head after several years to give him a lobotomy by poking, prodding, and slicing into his brain, he becomes pretty docile, even, after ninety-six murdered cats, finally....well, NOT killing one.

Madder, having had his mind utterly destroyed then rebuilt, is so averse to violence that, rather than defend himself in a fight, he tries to slit his own throat to avoid conflict.

The doctors release Madder into society once more with the name "Fillmore Press", and after two years of average living, he becomes a consultant to the local police department in helping stop serial killer, as he has QUITE the mind for it, and while the Madder personality threatens to come out every now and then, Fillmore manages to always stay in control.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

As Madder Red? None. He is a repulsive madman with a very Dark Knight!Joker mindset where he thinks that deep down, all humans can be like him, and his "final victory" would be in forcing them to kill him to save their children.

However, after his experiments, as "Fillmore", he cares for people, is a pacifist, and tries to help stop other killers as much as possible.

Which brings up the question that the comic itself asks: Can becoming a Friend to All Living Things through getting tortured, psychologically torn down, and lobotomized for over ten years really be considered redeeming, or is Madder Red still an unrepentant madman who was forced into a different personality and as such, and Fillmore should be considered an entire different entity than Madder?

Like, make no mistake, Madder is GONE. Fillmore is nothing like Madder at all. It's not a "He's the same, just unable to hurt people". He is literally a different personality, way of speaking, everything. And while Fillmore knows he was once Madder and is regretful of it, he's never treated AS Madder, if that makes sense.

Heinousness?

Baseline? Obliterates it.

In-story? Worst, though not HANDILY. The "final villain" of the story, Mr. Pixel, mind controls people into mass suicides, riots, and tries to get parents to kill their own children.

However, even against guys like Pixel, Madder is still the worst in-story by a large margin, and is treated as such, despite being a solely flashback villain.

Final Verdict?

I am unsure. If we were judging him solely as Madder? He'd be as easy a Keep as any I've proposed.....but with the whole "Fillmore" situation, it makes things alot harder. I REALLY wanna say 'Yes', but I can easily see why he probably won't end up being a Keep. Still, I think it'll be an interesting discussion to have.

edited 15th Jan '17 11:05:49 AM by Ravok

Yeah, I've been meaning to read that because he seemed like he could be a qualifier. If this is a clear Heel–Face Brainwashing situation, then he should be able to pass.

Hmm, think I'll Madder.

I'll give a to Madder.

Agreed. Reminds me of Harry Angel/Johnny Favorite..

Anyways, my issue is less with digging through franchises. It's with Klavice's self-admitted issue of doing just this, and being unable to leave Ace Attorney be when there's nothing to discuss there

Madder.

....That's a rather odd proposal.

Considering they had to physically reshape and slice this man's brain in order to get him to stop him from doing what he was doing, I'll Madder Red.

I've got no problem giving a yes to Madder. Ignoring the fact that it's a textbook case of Heel–Face Brainwashing, Madder can basically be considered a completely different entity than his post-experimentation, docile persona.

A bit unneeded but I'll weigh in on Callisto Yew: I kinda lean "Yes" to her since her bodycount/attempted bodycount is rather high for a "non-Phantom/Ga'ran villain", and her betrayal and murder of a client who trusted her is treated as an especially disgusting act in-universe. Her pointing Edgeworth and co towards Quercus never really struck me as redeeming since it's her following her creed of never being loyal to anyone: Quercus is just the most recent of a long line of people that she's betrayed.

However, the only thing that really gives me pause is her feelings regarding Byrne Faraday: she seems to swing between regretting killing him and actually acting sorrowful about it one moment... and acting completely unapologetic the next. It's kind of ambiguous if she really did regret killing him, so eh.

Madder

I ask again about Abattoir. Currently 5-1 (though I was getting a vibe from Clown-Face). If it's no, so be it (though, again, the attempted mass murder of those thousands on the train), but I'd appreciate it if it could be settled one way or the other.

I feel pretty comfortable giving a yes to Madder Red. I think we've had the odd case of Heel–Face Brainwashing in the past and we've ruled it as not disqualifying, so yes, since Madder here is explicitly treated as a separate entity from "Fillmore," he's got grounds for his own agency and can qualify.

edited 15th Jan '17 12:35:28 PM by Scraggle

Madder

My issue with Abattoir...he's bad, but I think he's got just enough resources to square with the remainder of Batman's main villains. In addition, I'm not sure his nastiness exceeds a good deal of the rest of the rogues gallery, like Zsasz's occasional stint in between murdering hundreds of men, women and children of "abduct runaways and force them to the death with the winner facing Zsasz."

Or James Gordon Junior and his insane plan of "turn every child in Gotham into sociopathic super-criminals"...

Even the likely death of thousands? I don't even think Zsasz gets to that level (Joker does, but, well, he's The Joker).

That's where I'm wavering most, since a lot of Gotham villains try stuff like that, too....like James Gordon Junior whose plan could've destroyed hundreds of thousands.

It's close, though.

I think I'll give Abattoir the benefit of the doubt and a

edited 15th Jan '17 12:51:40 PM by Forenperser

Y'know...

I think I'm gonna do the same.

Alright, cool. 7-2 so far; if nothing changes, I'll work on his writeup with the batch tomorrow.
On a totally different topic, remember Dog Soldier? Yesterday I binge-read all that's been scanlated (I wish the scanlators would work on the rest ). What's interesting to me is that, besides Zardoz and Gaddafi, most of the enemies (aside from Mister Harry (who bears a STRIKING resemblance to Bennett and who fails the heinous standard) are a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, a Tragic Villain, or somehow sympathetic.

edited 15th Jan '17 1:05:47 PM by ACW

Abittoir, Muse, and Madder

edited 15th Jan '17 1:07:15 PM by G-Editor

I have it on authority they're gonna continue...just a matter of a few...busy factors.

Thank goodness. I find myself loving that manga.

If Madder Red really is a completely different character than Fillmore Press, then I have no problem voting for him.

Abattoir... if it was only for his serial killing ways I would vote no, as he wouldn't be worse than other Batman villains like Zsasz or Doodlebug (another serial killer who drains people of their blood to use it as paint and tried to sacrifice everyone in Arkham to demons) but the thing about the bridge should be enough for a .

I'll give a to Madder Red. It sounds similar to the whole Brainiac to Brainiac 5 situation. If he didn't develop redeeming qualities of his own free will, then I wouldn't call it a disqualifier.

Oh, and Happy Birthday to username2527!

edited 15th Jan '17 7:42:30 PM by DeCarta

And you know what, for Abattoir's supposed Pet the Dog moment, especially since we don't actually see it, I'm chalking it up to similar as Mr. Blonde and the tipping scene and ruling it as not disqualifying.