During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well by DBZ Tao's power level does make him a joke, as Goku has gone from martial artist to Silver Age Superman. However, in Dragonball proper he's a very serious threat.
If I'm remembering correctly, DB does go a long way in trying to humanize 17 and 18. They have a strong bond with each other, at the very least, when 17 (? The male) dies. This is me talking about the manga, though, which could differ greatly from the anime's presentation of them.
edited 3rd Dec '12 6:29:00 PM by LargoQuagmire
@ Snake, how is Goku being an idiot exactly? With Tao he clearly no longer hated him, and he tried to spare Freeza because A) he doesn't like killing people and B) He was hoping the humilation and savage beating Freeza recieved would be enough to make him rethink his life, in the same way it did the same for Piccolo and Vegeta.
@5321 Doesn't Dr. Gero blow up an entire city with eye-beams onscreen?
Yep. If we included that then Nappa would also count.
@ Largo
17 seems shocked when 18 died in the anime (I don't remember if it's shown in the manga), but they don't show love to one another. There is admitted ambiguity about if their minds have been messed with. Did we see much of them in the manga?
@ Shaoken: He shows no issue despite Tao having never shown a shred of humanity every time they met. Given that Tao had gleefully impaled his friend with a spear and murdered him in front of his son the idea he'd just treat Tao as an old friend despite Tao having done nothing in front of him except murder his friend, try to murder his friends and kill him. That Goku would treat him with anything less than hatred is a sign that some writer had just forgotten everything. I want to believe this was anime only because it reminds me of the bit that made me hate Goku: stopping to have a huge feast with Korin when Videl was nearly dead and suffering horribly
Did they meet again in the manga, btw? I remember the anime, but not the manga there....looking it up, he only appeared in fillers after Dragonball. Should that count?
Well it isn't cannonical for the manga I would think.
Yes, but Goku also brought his friend's father back to life, so there's that. And Goku has also given chances to Piccolo (whose the reincarnation of someone who plotted to commit genocide over the course of 42 years) and Vegeta (who has done some pretty henious things of his own) and both of them took that chance and became better people for it. By the time we see him again in Z Tao's become less evil (committing more pety crimes), so Goku being nicer to him isn't that big of a stretch. It's more Goku's naivty assuming that "No longer trying to murder people" equals "I've reformed like the other two people I gave second chances to."
Whether Goku's a total idiot or not, the fact that he thinks that doesn't mean it's true.
The difference is Goku did kill the original Piccolo. Piccolo Jr was bad, but he hadn't committed anywhere near the same crimes and was a different person entirely. And Vegeta was a mistake. That puts the blood of those Namekians he murdered for no reason on goku's hands. And he became a 'good person' only after a very long time.It's his damn fault Cell got as far as he did, never mind his selling out to Babidi.
Tao had nothing to do with the revival of Goku's friends. It doesn't negate that he murdered him, anymore than revivals overrule Nappa's crimes, or Cell's and Freeza's(I think people'd still be sore at freeza for Krillen and the entire Namekian race even if they come back)
and more substantially, this only seems to occur in filler. Tao never appeared again in the manga.
edited 3rd Dec '12 8:51:23 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
@ 5316 : I don't get the impression that Goodman matches Ali or Ribbons for viciousness. Not that what he does isn't horrible but it seems that his list of " accomplishments " falls a little short.
I have watched some of Justified and I agree with Ambar's cuts. I've seen episodes with Arlo, Boyd and Bo and don't think that any of them count. All of them are too human and have positive traits as Ambar mentioned. In a series where the protagonist is more than a little trigger happy at times the level of heinousness needed to qualify for CM is fairly high.
I'd agree with that assessment of Goodman. If he got more screentime and character development, he'd probably belong on the list. As it is, I can't see him escaping Ali or Ribbons' shadows. A case where morally, he's probably a CM, but he doesn't quite meet the trope due to lack of time onscreen. That said, if we do decide to keep him, I won't be heartbroken.
EDIT: For those who don't know, the A-LAWS, which Goodman heads, are a State Sec group dedicated to hunting down those who oppose Ribbons's regime. As a high-ranking officer among them, Goodman is responsible for the worst of their tactics (he's basically an expy of previous Gundam villain, Bask Om who is on the list). He abuses the civilian population, kills 60 000 people with a Kill Sat, and is a Bad Boss to his men; his death caused much rejoicing in the fandom. That said, he gets very little screentime when compared to his boss, Ribbons, or Ali Al-Saachez, the Psycho for Hire who does most of Ribbons' up close killing, and I'm just not sure he gets enough characterisation to qualify.
edited 3rd Dec '12 9:11:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I wish I knew what volume 17 died, but there was a full-on death scene in the manga where 18 seems fairly devastated (for Dragon Ball standards, anyways). If anyone can remember what volumes those arcs are in, I'll try and pop them up on my computer and browse through them again.
@ Snake, besides the murder of of those Namekians, Vegeta was pretty good for the rest of the series. He made mistakes, but that doesn't mean that he was evi. Even Goku made serious mistakes too (bringing Cell back to full strength, not finishing off Fat Buu at the time). Sparing Vegeta also was the only reason that Goku and Gohan survived Namek (even with Goku's power boost in dealing with the Ginyu Squad, assuming they could swap Goku back into his own body, Vegeta was still crucial in buying time both against Racoom, saving Gohan and Krillen from certain death, and buying time against Freeza. If you want to go even more in detail Goku getting healed after his fight with Ginyu was thanks to Vegeta as well, using the healing tank on him). Hell it even repeated in the Android Saga; Goku was getting killed by 19 until Vegeta showed up, being the only one with the strength to deal with Gero and 19. So this rather pointless segway into DBZ fanboyism shows it wasn't a mistake to spare Vegeta.
Anyway, my original point is that a Complete Monster is supposed to cause disgust and loathing of that person, and Goku (who showed pretty much both after his second death learning that all of his villians were still being evil even in death) treats Tao with no ill-will.
That said, we can make the distinction between Anime Tao, Dragon Ball Online Tao, and manga Tao.
It's kind of the elephant in the room though. "Well, besides the time he committed mass murder and gloated about it to their friends and family..." And Goku making those errors ties in my point he's a moron. The proper response to your son having his spine snapped is not to grin like an idiot and gush how awesome everyting will be. Does Vegeta do good things? Sure. Is there any possible way Goku could have known he would do any of this? No. He spares Vegeta not out of hope for redemption, but "I respect his power and I want to fight him again!" That's an unbelievably stupid and selfish motivation.
And then Vegeta willingly sells his soul to become Majin Vegeta and slaughters a bunch of civilians. Plus he spares Cell and helps him achieve ultimate power. Vegeta's a hindrance about as often as he's a help. He was ready to murder Krillen and Gohan at the slightest provocation or hint of disloyalty as well. He was also set to ditch them against Freeza's second form.
Yeah, a CM is supposed to be played seriously, but if a character is too dumb to remember this guy is pure evil or filler writers forget that Goku has no reason to be amiable with a guy who ran a good friend through the guts with his spear. This is seriously jarring given how Tao was treated out of the filler and how Goku reacts to him.
Well his last appearance in Dragon Ball has him thrashed by Tien, I don't remember how they really treated him in that fight beyond him getting disqualified.
As with Vegeta, I'd argue he was more of a help in the long run than a hinderence. Sure he screwed up the Cell thing, but that puts him on par with the rest of the heroes who have made such mistakes (Gohan against Cell, Goku against Buu, Gotenks against Buu twice). As for selling out his soul, yeah he did it, and he also turned right on against Babidi as soon as Buu came out and had a heroic sacrifice to try and stop him. Not to mention his vital help in stopping Super Buu and Kid Buu.
That doesn't mean sparing him was a good idea at the time that Goku did it. It was a moronic choice that happened to work out for the best in the very long run. It doesn't make what Vegeta did less vile, nor does it make Goku's sparing him a well-thought out, reasoned decision.
Also, this Vegeta discussion has little bearing on the Tao discussion, because Tao does nothing good, and nothing to indicate that he's reformed. He's still a crook, even if Goku's new power means he isn't that threatening.
And, I'm going to say this again, we have to judge Tao based on what he did in Dragonball. No one should have to watch DBZ to find out Tao isn't a total bastard.
I argue against that. Dragon Ball Z is in the same continuity as Dragon Ball. Same characters and everything. If someone is depicted as a Complete Monster in one work but gets fleshed out in the sequal work that makes it clear he isn't a Complete Monster, that applies retroactively.
The difference in mediums (Manga and Anime being the key example) is perfectly okay, but I would be against trying to use the difference between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z to argue points about the same character. It'd be okay for describing characters exclusive to each series (so Dragon Ball characters don't have to be judged against Freeza), but not for ones that cross both.
EDIT: And you know what? I seriously take issue with that last sentance's logic. "Nobody should be forced to watch DBZ to find that Tao isn't an irredeamable monster." Putting aside the argument over Tao, you're right in that they shouldn't be forced to watch it. That doesn't mean that their laziness gets to change how we do business here on this wiki. If those people can't be bothered to watch or research it their opinion on his worthiness as a CM is worthless.
edited 3rd Dec '12 10:50:49 PM by Shaoken
Except that it isn't made clear in a sequel work. Both of Tao's appearances in DBZ are in filler arcs, something Lightysnake has repeatedly pointed out. He never appears again in the manga. So for the manga, his CM status has to stand on its own merits. And for quite some time we've been treating characters on the basis of how they are shown in the work they first appear in. I didn't invent that idea; we've been doing it for a while. It's one thing if you're dealing with say, a trilogy of books that was always meant to have a sequel, but that isn't the case here. DBZ is not a direct continuation of Dragonball. It takes place years later, and after a sizeable Genre Shift (from fantasy to straight up sci-fi). Heck, you can watch DBZ without watching Dragonball and it still largely makes sense. The two are separate stories. You do not have to read it to understand Dragonball. Therefore it should not matter when it comes to considering the actions of Dragonball's villains.
edited 3rd Dec '12 10:56:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The filler issue is irrelevant: I already said you can count him on the manga, and we have made distinctions between the depictions of characters before.
Simply put for the Anime, Tao appears in Dragon Ball Z. Dragon Ball Z is a continuation of Dragon Ball; both exist in the same continuity. Genre shifts are irrelevant, time skips are irrelevant. So any action he takes in Dragon Ball Z must be taken into account. That it's filler in the anime is irrelevant; the filler is canon to the anime, and we already make distinctions between Anime and Managa portrayals if there's a major difference between the two.
Your argument that I took exception to was "he's mainly in Dragon Ball, so we judge him purely on Dragon Ball." That will bite us in the ass hard if we follow it, because it will set the Precedent for any medium (TV Shows, Comic Books, and especially manga) that if the title effectively changes then it counts as seperate characters. Your argument is coming across as "Dragon Ball Z is irrelevant to Tao, even though he appears in both anime series and both share the same continuity." That is the key word, continuity. Following your logic Golumn from The Hobit would be treated in a vacuum from Golumn from The Lord Of The Rings; both are different in tone, both have a long time skip, etc.
edited 3rd Dec '12 11:01:24 PM by Shaoken
Except that we've done that before, regarding retcons, sequels, etc. Obviously we exclude the characters actions in the sequels (for instance, no one should list anything Tao does in the DBZ anime when listing his crimes), but that doesn't mean we should axe their actions in the original. I'll note again that we've done it before, so I don't know why it's suddenly an issue now.
In any case, we agree he qualifies in the manga, so the entry stays.
EDIT: Regarding Gollum, his portrayal is still the same though. There's still a clear sense of continuity. For Tao there really isn't any.
edited 3rd Dec '12 11:04:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The issue is really that the wording of your argument is that his actions in Dragon Ball Z are irrelevant. That would essentially, at face value, mean that if he does something that disqualifies him as a CM in Z (which he doesn't), it wouldn't count for the character in total.
So the issue here is that, if we take Dragon Ball Online as being in the same continuity (and seeing as it has the creator's involvement, there is currently no counter-argument to it), then Tao cannot count as he could not have been brought back to life if he was pure evil.
EDIT: It's been awhile since I saw Dragon Ball, and I don't remember Tao's last scene against Tien that well. From Z though his characterisation seems to be "Got his ass kicked by Goku and Tien, lost his edge and confidence."
edited 3rd Dec '12 11:06:48 PM by Shaoken
That's not a moral change though. Losing your ability to kick ass doesn't make you a better person. He's now up against people he simply can't hope to win against. He's the equivalent of a Serial Killer who suddenly runs into Superman. The fact that he can't do anything to this new opponent, doesn't invalidate how bad he used to be.
edited 3rd Dec '12 11:14:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I think Bakugan's Complete monster entry needs a clean up. I hate Bakugan through.....
edited 3rd Dec '12 6:17:43 PM by flamemario12