Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Does anyone else think Judge Holloway should be cut for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist?

I would give a tentative to Lucifer. Dante was bad but at least he redeems himself. Lucifer is just pure evil and his speech to Dante that he did thing worse than him is not an Even Evil Has Standards moment. He just speaks out of disgust for the human race. Moreover he manipulated, although in a subtle manner, great part of the events who bought both Dante and Beatrice to damnation

edited 29th Jul '15 1:25:04 PM by ST89

bobg: Regarding Holloway, she didn't strike me as a WIE; she may have started out as one, but she seemed to gradually become a hardened Knight Templar, as seen with her indifference about her actions, and apathetic to the suffering of others. Even with the other parents, who were believers as she was, they all suffered some sort of dilapidating remorse and repent over the murders of their own children, she does not. Her apparent concern over faith is clearly a ruse to hide a strict totalitarian personality, as it is clearly stated that she is willing to murder her only remaining daughter due to her disobedience. Personally I don't see the logic of her killing her only daughter to protect her family.

Lucifer. While he is worse than Dante in my opinion, he fails the heinous standard. He just... kidnaps Beatrice. We have Dante's father who robs from the poor and beats his wife also. I think Lucifer just fails the heinous standard. He is a Generic Doomsday Villain.

I am going for a swim now. I will provide more information on Holloway later today for a proper discussion.

edited 29th Jul '15 1:49:14 PM by bobg

Going to wait for a few more votes on Ultron before proposing a write-up, so any more votes would be appreciated.

Also, I believe Klavice wanted a few more votes on Shiz before making a write-up, so I'm sure more votes on him would help as well.

Abstaining on Lucifer for the moment. The heinous bar seems to be pretty high.

My issue with Lucifer is...he's kind of a standard villain, no? Pretty basic levels of evil villainy and all?

Dante, by contrast, massacres a city full of innocents, lets a friend take the fall for it, and sleeps with a woman on the condition she free her 'brother' from prison. Which is dubious consent at the best of times.

For what its worth, Lucifer does imply he is the source of sin, or he at least introduced it to the world, with the use of the forbidden fruit in the game. He also says that it is the sins of man that pave his way back to paradise, and that it's Dante's that will be the bedrock of his return. He pretty much wants to remove God's image from the world completely and replace it with his own.

edited 29th Jul '15 2:29:37 PM by Beast

That is pretty much like Ares from God Of War who was the source of Kratos's evil yet we agreed he is not a CM because merely being the source of someone's evil doesn't qualify you for a CM.

Lucifer, then. By the by, is Dante a deliberately dark protagonist (like Kratos) or just a badly-written one?

Deliberately. The issue being the game doesn't really, IMO, succeed in redeeming him for what he's done.

What's wrong with a nice poet who just wants to see his dead girlfriend, geez...

So if we're going to say no to Dantes Infero!Lucifer, should we take another look at Saints Row!Satan ? They aren't that much different, other than SR!Satan is based more on the cultural portrayal of the devil, and DI!Lucifer is based on the more traditional one. Also the protagonists of the Saints Row games have a lot of blood on their hands, being exceeded by Zinyak in bodycount (the main protagonist of Saints Row is said to have caused more death and destruction than any human in history and Johnny Gat has the longest list of people killed outside a military war zone - that list is under appeal in court.)

I think I'll say to Lucifer given all the information.

@emperors I wouldn't even say that Ares was the source of Kratos's evil- Kratos was already a brutal warlord before becoming Ares's servant, Ares just gave him power.

True, but he DID cause Kratos to kill his wife and kid.
Speaking if Zinyak, is that Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas the disqualifier?

I will give animated Ultron a . I will also give Lucifer a .

@ Phi Sat, Regarding animated Goth, his religion is not as explored in the cartoon as it is the books. In the cartoon he mentions his god a couple of times and in the episode where he and Shade are stuck in a mine, Shade makes Goth swear on his god (an Aztec deity named Cama Zotz) to let him live if he helps Goth escapes the mine. Goth seems to curse Zotz when things go bad for him (bemoaning that Zotz likes to test his followers) and plans to kill Shade regardless of his promise. Shade creates an illusion of Zotz that ends up scaring Goth out of his mind. After that humilating episode Goth really seems to hate Shade. Goth shows no real respect for Shade in the show, he goes from seeing Shade as a means to an end to actively loathing Shade. In the last episode Goth seems to be actively taunting Shade before he was going to deliver the death blow to him.

I was also wondering, how often can I bring up a character that just doesn't seem to generate much discussion? I brought up Time Master from Freedom Force a couple of times, I got a couple of yes votes for him, 3, 4 if you include myself. But I didn't seem to be able to get a lot of votes for him. Sorry I don't want to seem whiny, but I thought it was a question worth asking. Should I just give up on him? Here was my original effort post:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=1300

edited 29th Jul '15 4:02:45 PM by Overlord

Lucifer

Unless some form of new disqualifying infomation comes up, I'll give The Time Master a

edited 29th Jul '15 4:12:10 PM by Ravok

If there's not much feedback, you can keep bringing him up; if there are no , you can probably write him up.

Ah, I see. In the book it was more like ->Means to an end ->Respect when he thought Shade was going to betray the other Silverwings who'd been dicks to him and join him back in the Amazon ->Hate after Shade drugs him and tries to escape, then uses the illusion. After that Zotz takes over and puts Goth under his thumb, so any further things he does are under Zotz's influence and can't really be counted.

The book also points out that he and Throbb are much weaker than usual without eating their regular diet of other bats, so there is a little bit of weight to his argument of needing to eat the Silverwings/find their safe haven for the winter.

But if he doesn't have the Freudian Excuse, then yeah, he's pretty monstrous. for the show Goth then.

I'm a fan of God of War, and to be honest, it's always puzzled me why Ares doesn't count. Kratos is a nasty piece of work, no question, but Ares is just a monster. He tricks uses Kratos as his personal attack dog, planned to use him to overthrow Olympus, tricks Kratos into killing his family, rejected his own son for being weak, attacks Athens just to spite Athena, brutally kills Kratos, threatens to use Pandora's Box against his own family, and traps Kratos in a sadistic illusion where he has to watch his wife and child die again. In the novelisation, he was even responsible for the Hydra that Kratos fights in the first part of the story. And, unlike the gods in subsequent games, Ares isn't doing any of this because he was affected by Pandora's box; he's doing it because he enjoys it.

Kratos is a brutal mass-murderer, but he doesn't take nearly the pleasure in it that Ares does, wages war out of loyalty to Sparta while Ares does it just to be a dick, and kills the gods because he has a legitimate grievance with them (they used him to kill Ares, then denied him any peace), albeit one that he takes way too far, and, unlike Ares, he does have loved ones and some standards. My point is, Kratos might be a monster, but Ares is a Complete Monster.

In my opinion, anyway. I welcome discussion.

edited 29th Jul '15 5:44:42 PM by DeCarta

ACW: Regarding Zinyak, here's the things that keep him from qualifying.

• Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas: The collectibles that reveal his origin shows that he was very fond of his mother. She's the reason why he likes art.
• Even Evil Has Standards: During one of his text adventures, should anyone click the kill your parents option, he finds whoever selected that option barbaric.
  • Also, when clicking the option to "Play selections from the Zin Orchestra at high volume", he admits that no one, not even his enemies, deserves to hear songs from them (since Zinyak mentions that they're famous for making horrible songs).

Again Zinyak set a new heinous standard in the series by abducting a percentage of humanity and subjecting them to a personal virtual hell to break their wills, and killing off the rest of humanity. The tropes above disqualify him from CM status, because it's a safe bet he loves his parents. Satan on the other hand had no redeeming qualities and inflicted torments in the real hell, being sadistic and prideful about it and plotted to invade heaven with hells army.

In the show, Goth seems to briefly respect Shade for saying he was willing to betray his colony for personal gain, but I don't respecting someone for willing to commit an evil counts as a redeeming value, we have many monster characters who respect others for all the wrong reasons.

edited 29th Jul '15 6:24:51 PM by Overlord

Regarding Ares, it is established at the very beginning of God of War 2 that Kratos, in his brief stint as the new god of war, was far more brutal and horrific than Ares ever was. Thusly, Ares is disqualified simply because he wasn't as heinous as the protagonist.

edited 29th Jul '15 8:31:00 PM by LoreDeluxe

I haven't played God of War but I'm under the distinct impression that Kratos is (intentionally) the worst person in the series.