During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Josiah has a bodycount of 3, 1 rape, a number of brainwashings, and at least two other attempted murders. Usually, killing the good sheriff would be a bit too easy to mention, but the fact he planned to kill him in such a hideously nasty manner...
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That's enough for him to count, esp. when you toss in the racism. ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
solidified. I just took care of the Star Wars stuff.
I've always had mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I definitely see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, I feel like it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes between shock stories and legitimate horror fiction - and horror is IMO one of the "better" purposes for writing a CM in the first place.
to Josiah.
Also, I hear Torres will be re-appearing on Every Witch Way; now this is just a heads up- I promise won't call for a re-evaluation for her unless she does something that breaks standard kids show villainy, like say try to destroy the universe. Pinky swear. However, I do have the current Big Bad Jake Novoa on my wait and see list, and there's only a few more episodes left before the series ends, but so far he has a total onscreen attempted body count at 21.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Honestly, I can't see anyone from a Nickelodeon sitcom counting for this tropes qualifications.
I know. All I said was I'm keeping an eye on Jake for now. That said, EWW isn't a sitcom, it fits more in a dramady genre and things are getting pretty dramadic now, that and there's only three more episodes before the series ends. And I also said, if they don't count I won't bring them up, I was just giving a heads up.
For what its worth, I'm al keeping my eye on Carmilla the Series and Teen Wolf on my wait and see list - so far the Desert Wolf of the latter has my attention.
edited 27th Jul '15 7:00:38 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
I remember reading Silverwing back in elementary school and I thought Goth's excuse was valid? Or am I thinking of the animated series or movie?
Also are neglectful/abusive parents an automatic D Qer? Suppose in a later game, Manfred Von Karma's father was revealed to be as abusive and soul killing as he was to Miles and Franziska. Would we cut him since that would technically give him an excuse, or would we keep him and judge his father.
Also the Ron the Death Eater page for MLP says Twilight Sparkle from Pages of Harmony is a Well-Intentioned Extremist and judging from what it says, I'm inclined to agree with it. Can someone convince me how she is not a dark WIE?
Also speaking of darkfic examples I have a potential Abusive Guardian fic that might have a candidate in, guess who? Rainbow Dash. She tries to get Scootaloo killed, beats her violently, and threatens to kill Scootaloo if she should tell anyone. Is that sufficient enough to qualify? She's not played for laughs and is very bitchy compared to canon. It's not dark for shock either, it's a trend in the brony fandom called Scootabuse.
edited 27th Jul '15 7:44:52 PM by Klavice
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Klavice...
You know nobody likes dealing with these. Nobody likes hearing about them. You constantly post this Pony Darkfic stuff and time and again it's the same reaction. Why do you keep doing it?
It's tiring. I don't care about Pony Darkfic. It wouldn't be an issue if you weren't always bringing it up. It's not just once or twice, it's constant. A lot of us would prefer you talk about something else.
Furthermore, it's also getting to be a bit much with the very common knowledge hypotheticals and questions. You have been an active member of this thread for literally years and should know the answer to that.
and no, I'm sorry, being a 'trend' in a part of the fandom I am already starting to see as disturbing and creepy does not make it less dark for the sake of dark. And yes, when you have an entire subset of fanfiction dedicated to abusing a character known as part of the 'Cutie Mark Crusaders' enough to have its own cute little buzz name? There. Are. Problems.
edited 27th Jul '15 8:01:23 PM by Lightysnake
Seconded.
It's one thing to discuss examples that have already been added and might need fixing, but seriously, why are you bringing these proposed examples up when you act like you'd rather not talk about them any more than the rest of us?
edited 27th Jul '15 8:04:58 PM by nrjxll
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Thirded.
In general, I think fan works should be the last stuff on our list.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
I also want to draw a distinction right now.
Let's say there's a fanfiction of an evil force taking over Equestria, or the Ponies being transported into a different world and having to fight an evil tyrant or mage, or reimagining MLP as a dark or epic fantasy. See, that would be something worth discussing.
When you have a fic whose main purpose is to take a character meant to be 'adorable, precocious little pegasus' who is there for little girls to identify with and enjoy and your instinct is "torture the fuck out of her" to a point enough people think this is a good enough idea to have its own niche in the fandom? Yeah, I'm sorry, but....no, that is dark for its own sake.
I could theoretically start proposing the lead characters from fake snuff films that try to have a story. It doesn't mean I should
edited 27th Jul '15 8:12:35 PM by Lightysnake
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
And for the record, I'm not against MLP; I've never actually seen a single episode. I'd feel the same if everyone were proposing Spongebob or Rugrats darkfic, for instance.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
"Angelica's Asylum: the Torture of Tommy."
"Patrick in Peril: Gary's Gorntastic Adventure"
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
I'll also say for Prophet Josiah
I will give a to Josiah.
As for my V for Vendetta write ups, I can add a few sentences to Creedy regarding his betrayal of Sutler and sadistic habits like personally beating up some of the people he arrests. But I'm not sure what more I can say about Sutler, I described most of his regime's crimes and Sutler himself doesn't do much besides appear on a TV screen and berate his underlings.
Regarding Goth, again I was proposing animated Goth, not his novel counterpart and well he does have a Freudian Excuse (we see him escape the research center where human scientists are studying him) I don't think the show portrays his quest to eat Shade's colony as a sympathetic goal. He engages in too much over the top psychopathic behavior to be dismissed as just a predator animal, he comes as very cruel and sadistic in general and he seems more like a glutton then someone who is eating to survive. In the last episode he is killing Owls to gain power, not for food, so I think his Freudian Excuse is not very valid in explaining his actions.
Also, yeah, I would want to put off talking about Ron the Death Eater examples of a light hearted kids franchise for as long as possible. Fan fics that don't feature Ron the Death Eater examples would be better. I mentioned before there is a Star Trek fanfiction that has a monster on its YMMV page (who is not part of the main cast), so that seems more like the kind of fan fiction we should be discussing:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/StarTrekGenesis
Also someone added Khan as a monster to the YMMV section of the Star Trek The Eugenics Wars novel:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/StarTrekTheEugenicsWars
Given what we know of Khan in the canon Star Trek universe, I don't think Khan could ever count.
edited 27th Jul '15 8:58:52 PM by Overlord
I've read those novels. He doesn't.
I have been watching American Horror Story Asylum, and I have two characters whose potential removals I would like to discuss: Leigh Emerson and Dr. Oliver Thredson.
First, Leigh Emerson:
His entry:
• Leigh Emerson is perhaps the most vicious inmate at Briarcliff. Originally put in prison as a young man for stealing a loaf of bread, Emerson was raped by several inmates, which twisted him into a maniac. He later murders several families on Christmas, children included, while dressed as Santa Claus. As an inmate at Briarcliff, he attacks an orderly during a Christmas photoshoot, which results in a year-long stay in solitary confinement for him as well as a banning of further Christmas celebrations. When the Devil frees him from this solitary confinement, he is eager to resume his killing spree and his first act is to attack Sister Jude with beating canes and attempt to rape her. Though she manages to non-fatally stab him, he still successfully pins the blame on her. Claiming to want redemption, he convinces Monsignor Howard to baptize him. Afterward, he dunks Howard's head in the tank in an attempt to drown him and nails him to a cross in place of Jesus before escaping from Briarcliff and murdering at least seven nuns.
Reason I would like to discuss his potential removal:
He has a Freudian Excuse. I think the rapes that happened to him need a bit more clarification. He was arrested for stealing a loaf of bread and was locked up in prison (prison for stealing a loaf of bread?) and, during his time in prison, he was raped by five men on either Christmas day or Christmas eve, which ruined his Christmas spirit forever and is what drove him to commit mass murder around Christmas time. He also has a good reason for hating Jude: she caned his ass really really badly and kept him in solitary for a full year, with no baths or other way to treat his blisters, causing them to become permanent and really bad. I think his Freudian Excuse and reason for hating Jude might sort of mitigate his status as a monster. To keep this post from getting too long, I'll discuss Threadson in another post.
edited 27th Jul '15 9:15:20 PM by bobg
jjj
I can see possibly removing Emerson, but no way in hell on Threadson.
The issue I have with Threadson is h becomes enraged when Lana tells him that she aborted the unborn baby she got from being raped by him.
To quote the Bloody Face character entry:
• Even Evil Has Loved Ones/Even Evil Has Standards: He's horrified when Lana tells him that she aborted their Child by Rape. His response is a combination of "You killed our child!" and "You killed an innocent baby!" Of course, we all know that this didn't work.
And
• Wouldn't Hurt a Child: Is terrified by the thought of a child growing up in an orphanage, and tells Lana that she's a monster for attempting to abort their child because she's harming an innocent child.
jjj
Yeah, except he tries to murder her while she's pregnant without a trace of hesitation later. Throws the whole 'standards' down the drain.
edited 27th Jul '15 9:30:01 PM by Lightysnake
This might be a stupid question, but would killing a pregnant woman automatically kill the unborn baby as well?
jjj
At her stage of the pregnancy, absolutely.
Unless we've hit a stage of viability that she didn't have there.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Reverend Josiah.
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."