During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Whoreson.
Whoreson
Okay, having seen numerous walkthroughs and many a Let's Play, here is a full writeup on the Villain Protagonist of Video Game/Hatred:
Who is he: The unnamed Playe Character (some call him Not Important, others call him The Cruesader, I will call him The Main Character.
What does he do?
WARNING: SPOILERS. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THE GAME SPOILED FOR YOU, MAKE SURE YOU'RE SHOW SPOILERS FUNCTION IS SITCHED OFF!
If you count the tutorial as canon the main character starts off by practicing shooting in his basement, before killing a drugged man he was holding hostage in his basement. After he has decided that he has practiced enough, he goes upstairs, this is where the tutorial ends and the actual gam begin.
The game stars with the main character talking about how much he hates humanity, before going outside to start a shooting spree. The first level requires you to kill at least 50 people and than massacre an entire police station (if you want you can kill more, but you HAVE to kill at least 50 people and massacre a police station in order to advance). The main character than goes into the sewers to bypass the police, although some police are stationed in the sewers. After killing a number of police and leaving the sewers, he arrives in a heavily populated area At this point, you MUST kill one hundred people (80 civilians and 20 cops). The main character than hijacks a train and kills everyone. While on the train, he sees that it is headed to a station near a nuclear power plant, which gives him the idea to break in, cause a nuclear meltdown, and kill himself and everyone in the surrounding area. After killing 80 truckers, he steals a heavily armed swat car, and uses it to kill one hundred people. Leaving the station on foot, he goes to a heavily populated area, where he kills at least 190 people (forty of them military soldiers). The main character breaks into a military base, kills everyone (a walkthrough showed there were at least 40 people there , and steals some explosives. The main character final goes to the power plant and plants the explosives, before breaking into the control room to try and overload he reactors just in case the explosives don't work, he forces a scientist to set up the computer for him (by stabbing him in the head and telling him that if he doesn't, he will make him die "very fucking slowly"). He kills the scientist and tries to login when the military arrives and shoots him to death, only for hi to activate the explosives with his dying breath, killing thousands.
Redeeming features, mitigating factors, or Freudian Excuse?
He has no backstory. He also displays no redeeming features. While we never learn why he hates humanity so much, it's unlikely to be out of disgust for their actions, as in one of the trailers he admits that he is targeting innocent people. While he is never show killing animals or children onscreen, this is extremely unlikely to be for any reason other than the fact that they are not seen in the game. Actually, it's pretty much a given that he WOULD kill children and animals since there must have been thousands of them killed in the nuclear explosion t the end, and he didn't care.
Bad by the standards?
Only villain.
Hated by others?
Everyone fears him.
Played straight?
He has some cheasy lines here and there, but that's it. His actions are always played dead straight.
Redemption?
No.
Does he have enough character?
I... don't know.
edited 2nd Jun '15 6:11:26 PM by bobg
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, his actions are certaintly -worthy. It's only his characterization that's an issue...
The Big Bad of The Witcher 3 and Bigger Bad of the entire franchise is Eredin Breacc Glas, the King of the Wild Hunt. He really needs an effort post before any major discussion can occur. I'm still putting it together but I'm rereading the novels he is in to give a convincing argument. Oh, and any discussion on him will be spoileriffic to say the least.
As narmtastic as Hatred is, I can justify a for Not Important.
edited 2nd Jun '15 6:18:11 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I think I'll throw in a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Hatred Guy. He doesn't seem like much of a character, and I'm not entirely sure he isn't a parody from that description.
From what I've seen he displays a level of hatred and disgust for humanity that I would never associate with a GDV. He doesn't need to be a particularly deep character to avoid being a GDV, there are plenty of CMs that are fairly bland. I can see no reason for him not to qualify. .
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
So I guess we're not waiting two weeks to chat about Hatred.
Someone mentioned Ronan earlier and a few other somewhat generic villains who ended up being C Ms, despite having a somewhat bland characterization. Eh, what the hell. The Crusader. Or Not Important. Or The Antagonist. Whatever his name is. >__<
Normally it's not an issue, but the complete monster entries usually have to be serious to match the tone we have set for the trope. Not Important might not be appropriate as a name so using The Antagonist as the name might be best for the actual entry.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
If he doesn't have a name in the game, we can just call him 'the protagonist from Hatred'.
to not important.
As for Ward, I don't know who brought him up but, and if anything his storyline and what he has become shows how Garrett is the real monster long after his death. And as MEH-worthy as his actions were he did care enough for Kara. I am aware some people view him as a CM but it has less to do with the character himself and more to do with the DILP that he's got from some fans.
edited 2nd Jun '15 8:06:21 PM by xie323
Lost in Space
I still don't believe that the PC of a video game can be a CM, especially if they are given no meaningful characterization. on the Hatred protagonist on general principles.
to Not Important/the Crusader/whoever. He seems like a perfect keep; he's nothing more than a sadistic killing machine. Narm doesn't play into disqualifying him, otherwise we wouldn't have The Master. The problem? He's nothing more. His motive and entire character can just be summed up is "I don't like people." He's too shallow to really define any sort of a meaningful character.
That's not a disqualifier for Michael Myers, or any number of similar characters we already have listed.
Ok, as I said previously, my main problem with Whoreson Jr counting is how dark the setting's gotten. In the third game the setting revolves around an open war between a fascist dictator and a genocidal Knight Templar, and it’s predominantly because of this wartime setting that the heinous standard increases so drastically in this installment, with people able to act worse within the "freedom" of war conditions. Rape and murder have always been a part of the setting, but now they’re alarmingly commonplace. Below are just a couple of examples of how thoroughly dark the setting’s gotten. I'll try to not spoil this as much as I can, but be careful of spoilers regardless.
In Velen, a war-torn territory ruled by a warlord called the Bloody Baron (who actually turns out to be one of the more sympathetic people in the game), serves the Emperor of Nilfgaard and his soldiers are pretty horrible people. Just after encountering three of them, you can hear them talking about how one of them who came across a man and his son who was “pretty” and how the soldier suspected it may be the man’s daughter disguised as a boy. He raped the boy anyway without confirming his gender and he and his buddies have a laugh about it. Once the Bloody Baron is gone from Velen and his Number Two, Sergeant Ardal, takes control bandits begin raping and killing the people of Crow's Perch with impunity. And when Geralt confronts Ardal about this, the man basically says he doesn’t give a shit if Geralt likes it or not and they’re going to keep doing what they’re doing. One side mission involves finding out why Redanian caravans are being targeted by a "monster". If Geralt finds out it’s actually elves doing the raiding, and if he chooses to kill them to stop the raids then report it to the Redanian commander who gave him the task, the commander says they’ll round up all the innocent elves in the area and hang every tenth one to set an example to the others. Even the "innocent" NPCs in this world can be horrible people. Another background conversation involves a woman cradling a baby, talking happily about how she sent her two children out alone into the woods to pick mushrooms, full well knowing they’d die, just so there’d be less mouths to feed, and she talks about it like she’s goddamn proud she did it. You meet couple of other kids in the game who have been abandoned by their children as well, just so they won't have to take care of them anymore.
In Novigrad, the Witch Hunters and Church of the Eternal Fire Temple Guards, led by Caleb Menge, are conducting a genocidal purge against sorceresses, rounding them up and burning them at the stake. They also conduct lots and lots of Cold-Blooded Torture, with Triss Merigold, possibly getting all of her fingernails ripped out, and the bard Dandelion planned to be subjected to public execution which involves a breaking wheel and being flayed alive. Did I mention a large portion of the populace of Novigrad are fully supportive of these purges? And most people expect the Witch Hunters to move on nonhumans once the sorcerers and sorceresses are wiped out. In fact, you see a Doppler being burned alive at the stake when you first reach the setting who's calling out that he just wanted to live like humans.
In fact, I'd say even in this game, Whoreson Jr. is overshadowed as a Serial Killer by A Concerned Citizen from the "Carnal Sins" side quest, who I honestly think is closer to a better candidate for this trope. Whereas Whorseson’s Serial Killing is thrown in the audience’s face at random, (seriously, it’s like the game was like, "Oh by the way he murders prostitutes. Have fun with that."), A Concerned Citizen gets a long side quest where you uncover their murders. A Concerned Citizen tortures people by keeping them alive as they remove their eyeballs, places burning coals in their pockets, forces them to drink formaldehyde, and then removes their hearts. This person does this out of a fanatical devotion to the Church of the Eternal Fire, believing the populace of Novigrad is corrupt and deserves to be taught a lesson. Unlike Jr. who "just" murders prostitutes, A Concerned Citizen targets anyone who "disrespects" the faith, like prostitutes, a theologist criticizing the church's doctrines, an old woman having a crisis of faith after seeing people being burned alive, a performer, a dwarf selling statues of “false” gods, and orphaned children. It turns out, this person is a High Vampire, one of the very nonhumans the Church would be against, but he still believes in his psychotic crusade. Also during this quest you encounter a Red Herring who made a career out of conducting Cold-Blooded Torture on women before being inducted into the Church. He continues to torture prostitutes by burning them with a hot poker (though he says he doesn’t kill them)? And if Geralt asks why he does it, he flat out says because it’s fun.
So yeah, it’s really, really hard for me to agree to Whoreson Jr counting in this game because of how abysmal the setting’s gotten in this installment. Even fellow crime boss, the dwarf Cleaver, has a bunch of bodies in the sewers near his warehouses of his victims which you can encounter.
edited 2nd Jun '15 8:54:26 PM by OccasionalExister
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Your argument is the main reason I was on the fence about him. I would observe that "A Concerned Citizen", by the nature of what he turns out to be, is somewhat higher tier in terms of villainy and therefore gets a different standard. And I would have no problem with judging him to be a CM as well.
edited 2nd Jun '15 8:51:50 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
It's not outrageous for a game to have multiple complete monsters especially if the game is as massive and in-depth as The Witcher 3. The heinous standard is Berserk level high here but I do believe Whoreson Junior just tips over that standard considering he is only human.
edited 2nd Jun '15 9:06:09 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
The Concerned Citizen sounds like he definitely deserves an effort post.
Ironically enough, for a franchise that revolves around the escapades of a monster hunter, the concerned citizen would actually be the first non human to qualify for the trope with the possible future exception of Eredin.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I'm going to assume that Exister knows what he's talking about and vote Whoreson Jr (there's a name) down.
I'm going to have to abstain on Whoreson Jr. because I cannot possibly take him seriously with that name.
That said, a question that might potentially clarify the heinousness standard issue: are there any good people in this game? There's a big difference between a setting having a lot of nasty stuff and a setting that is too uniformly awful for anyone to qualify.
Oh yes. The Witcher has a lot of Humans Are Bastards but there are a number of decent, kind hearted and good people in the world.
Lost in Space
Oh, yes, there are plenty of good people, from the occasional generous townsfolk to a number of Geralt's acquaintances, new and old. The fact that there are so few relative to the evil in the world makes them all the more precious. Now, there are some people who toe the line between good for good's sake and good for selfishness' sake. A lot of basically decent folk have agendas that make them somewhat dangerous, like Keira (and apparently Yennefer, although I haven't gotten to the bottom of her shenanigans yet). Triss seems good through and through, but her suffering under the witch hunters in Novigrad makes her ... let's just say a wee tad vengeful.
Dandelion is a delightful fellow without a drop of ill intent in his body, but he's got absolutely zero common sense. Priscilla, his squeeze, is wonderful. At least one of the Jarls in Skellige is a Reasonable Authority Figure.
Also, a lot of apparently awful people have a hidden soft side. The Bloody Baron, for example, besides being a murderous bastard on the battlefield, a drunkard, and a wife beater, is also trying to civilize the bandits that he's rounded up into an army and seems to genuinely care for the well-being of the peasants, so long as they do what he wants. He also truly repents of his misdeeds during the quest to find his family.
edited 2nd Jun '15 10:04:26 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
In the novels, even the guy who runs the evil empire is actually a genuinely nice guy on a personal level, considers the hero Geralt a genuine friend (killing him would only be business, not pleasure), and loves his daughter (to the point he sacrifices a shot to rule the world for her happiness.)
Hmm, Whoreson seems like a![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
. And he's only human, right?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsWhat about the Big Bad?