Rename to Abusively Sexy: Bastard Boyfriend

Edit: This thread is horribly outdated and should be locked. See instead the new thread:

Switch with the Abusively Sexy Bastard redirect: Bastard Boyfriend

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Below follows the original post in a thread based on the premise that Bastard Boyfriend is supposed to cover female examples as well, but iof it ever was gender neutral it certainly no longer is: In this thread we reached the consensus that instead of being gender neutral the trope should have a Distaff Counterpart. That trope was launched this morning, under the name Abusively Sexy Bitch.

The title doesn't describe he trope, and it also limit the trope in a way that now seem to be unintended.

The trope is about sexual abuse being played for Fetish Fuel.

But "bastard" does not explain this, and "boyfriend" makes it really awkward to add examples where the abuser is female and/or single.

Abusively Sexy would be a much better title, IMHO.

It appears that Hylarn and the moderators consider Bastard Boyfriend to cover examples where the abuser is female and/or single: For a few hours we had a trope named "Abusively Sexy", but it was cut on the premise that it's already covered by the trope "Bastard Boyfriend".

The examples in that trope was with female abusers, since boyfriends was already covered by the older trope.

Like I said from the start, I don't feel any need to keep the two as separate tropes. So I don't mind the new trope getting cut, but the old trope should really be renamed to the new name.

So: Rename the trope to Abusively Sexy, maybe with keeping "Bastard Boyfriend" as a redirect.

edited 6th Nov '10 9:20:10 AM by Xzenu

Concur.

Part of the problem is that Bastard Boy Friend is written as an Always Male Japanese media only trope. I don't agree with the anime onl bit, but honestly, a lot of the character type and what it means does change when you make the character female. There should be separate tropes for the two because they're going to be treated differently. Part of it is because Abuse Is All Right If It Is Female On Male part of it is just because of the power dynamics between men and women. It's not the same trope if it's a girl.

edited 1st Nov '10 7:40:45 AM by shimaspawn

If we do change the name, I'll update the description a bit. Change the "always male, always anime" to something like "an established boyfriend type in anime".

Restricting the trope to anime should go in any case!

I think we have two viable options here:

• A. Have it as one trope, but include some problematization on gender roles and heteronormativity.
• B. Keep barstard boyfriend as a gendered trope - but rename it to something clearer, open it up to non-anime, add some discussion about heterosexual vs gay examples, and add a Distaff Counterpart trope for it.

In either case, it will require some work! Preliminary, I'll give it some thought for a few days and then write a sandbox draft for a description, probably for option A.

I think it would have to have a Distaff Counterpart because a woman in the same role doesn't tend to have the same personality type and she isn't treated the same way in fiction. She's essentially a different character all together.

Maybe so. Okay.

So, three tropes perhaps?

Revising Bastard Boyfriend

• AbusivelySexy - supertrope
• AbusivelySexyBastard - gendered subtrope
• AbusivelySexyBitch - gendered subtrope
• Also, see the Trope Repair Shop thread.

The supertrope would cover couples that are abusively sexy together against a third person, groups and organizations that operate the same way, and so on.

Woah wait a minute.

Bastard Boyfriend is supposed to be about boyfriends who are Jackasses, forceful and mildly violent- and the girl finds this sexually enticing. It's related to All Girls Want Bad Boys, Its Not Rape If You Enjoyed It, along with a pretty big dose of "I can change him!".

It's a feminine fantasy that shows up in a lot of romances aimed at women. It should not be so focused on Japanese shoujo manga, although that is a big location for this, but it's also in those steamy romance novels.

It is a good title, that accurately sums up most people's response to this person when they meet him: "How did a bastard like that get a girlfriend?"

Furthermore the title was picked in rename crowner to replace the old title. So don't just go off changing this one without a more extensive discussion and vote.

It seems to me we just need to make the description less anime/manga based, and create a distaff counterpart. I don't think we need a supertrope, and don't really think this trope needs to be renamed.

We don't need to add anything about gay versions, since:

1: Those play out differently then relationships between men and women.

2: We already have it. It's called Uke and Seme.

edited 3rd Nov '10 9:55:39 AM by Sackett

I think it's too early for a crowner. Lets see if any more alternative titles pop up. For the male trope, for the female trope, for the supertrope, or for all three.

I think you are right that the male trope is common in western romance novels, I'll mention that in the next update.

As for the supertrope, I think it's coming along nicely. But it's far from finished yet.

Btw, renaming or not is not such a central issue anymore, since we are going the route of having separate tropes for male and female.

Abusively Sexy sounds like a horrible name, unless there is some pun that I'm missing.

No, Vree. There is no fun or pun in the name, only horror. The Fridge Horror of laughing, cheering, going "aww how cute", and maybe even feel inspired... only to realize that your entertainment is sexual abuse, maybe to the point of rape and torture.

There's really only two ways of getting out of that kind of squick without changing position to Moral Guardian. One is to downplay the abuse, pretending that it's not that bad. The other is to acnowledge that the entertainment already have the one and only excuse it really needs: It's only fiction. The second path is more honest, and it lets us acknowledge that this awesome guy is in fact not only a bastard - but an abusive bastard. And not only that, but a bastard who is sexy in an abusive way, sexy because he is abusive.

In my opinion, Sackett made an excfelent argument for why "Bastard Boyfriend" is not a really good title for this particular trope:

It is a good title, that accurately sums up most people's response to this person when they meet him: "How did a bastard like that get a girlfriend?"

It is indeed accurate in that particular way. However, it is in the same way accurate for any bastard, not at all limited to bastards who are abusive or sexy... or as in this case the second because of the former.

Lets say you have a neighbor who really gets on your nerves, for reasons who have nothing to do with how he treats his wife. Maybe he's picking on you, or you are simply jealous at him for some reason.. for example that he has such a hot wife! Surely you could react in the same way: "How did a bastard like that get a girlfriend?"

("You" being a generic you, not any individual participating in this thread!)

Oh, and I was wrong about homosexuality. Gay relationships was in fact already sufficiently included in the trope description. A Seme is not automatically abusive. However, Bastard Boyfriend, Seme and Spectacled Sadist refer to each other in a fluent manner.

'Abusively Sexy Bitch'? Could we go for a main title that's a leeettle more SFG?

Laculus, the issue popped up in the YKTTW thread and was resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Yet, I do think it can be worth discussing further. However, it have very little to do with the subject of this thread: Renaming a gender neutral trope with a gendered name to a gender neutral name.

Instead, I have started a new thread about the Bastard / Bitch dichotomy.

As for this thread, it is outdated and obsolete: We now have two gendered tropes, and giving the male trope a gender neutral name now would not only be redundant but also cause confusion. So lets close it. I'll soon start a new thread about the name of the male gendered trope, a thread based on the premise that the trope is indeed gendered.