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But that could apply to anything though. Think about it. The audience will see a lot of things as evil but most of the time, it won't be in-universe example. If you write a Jerk Sue like Paul in Pokemon who can get away with every thing in the series from abusing his Pokemon, showing poor sportsmanship to psychologically breaking trainers and NEVER be called on it. It's Karma Houdini. He's never called on it because he's a Jerk Sue and the writer of the D/P arc said Paul was his favorite character and decided that he could get away with anything, so of course none of the characters in series are going to say anything. Heck, Cynthia the Champion even praises Paul despite being an abusive trainer when in the games, she would be appalled by his behavior.
What I'm trying to say is that if it's limited to in-universe examples, then the characters that truly fit into this trope won't be called out and it's just simply a YMMV when people who support Karma Houdini characters are more likely fans who do the Draco in Leather Pants.
Say it in red! "People die when they are killed."
"The audience will see a lot of things as evil but most of the time, it won't be in-universe example." sounds as an opinion, in other words, an YMMV.
edited 29th Jan '12 3:50:35 AM by MagBas
Serocco
Keep Karma Houdini as an objective trope, please.
In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
It's easy, mmkay?
Can a protagonist be a Karma Houdini?
At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...
Why not? Is Ferris Bueller a Karma Houdini? I think so.
Oh! That's not listed as an example on Karma Houdini.Film.
edited 19th Feb '12 4:11:02 AM by rodneyAnonymous
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Can a protagonist be a Karma Houdini?
Can a protagonist be a bad guy? Yes.
The question is can a good guy be a Karma Houdini? I guess the Anti-Hero type can be one. The heroic good kind of hero less.
But it is possible that the audience has this reaction, because they see the actions of a good guy in a different light than the author Maybe the author didn't thought of the implication of the good guys action or because of Value Dissonance.
Right now the trope is defined in a way that accidental creation of a KH is part of the trope too. But there is no story telling behind the creator of a work dieing befor the punishment of the villian was written.
Either we make this an audience reaction trope (then good guy examples would fit too), or we have to find the story telling purpose behind this trope (e.g. showing that life is unfair) and restrict the trope to examples when the trope was invoked on purpose.
There's more than one way to accidentally have a Karma Houdini, though. Consider the case of a Jerkass Sue. The author probably didn't intend their character to be a jerk so often, it just sort of happened. Thus, when the jerk's comeuppance fails to be delivered it's a completely different type of karma failure, and has no storytelling purpose.
But depending on the series, the character might not even care of the person crosses the Moral Event Horizon or a Jerk Sue so the fact that the audience has to decide on it would be a YMMV but I think it feels unjust since the character in series could be too stupid to care about things and let said character get away with it.
As the only game I'm sure of that discusses this trope is Persona 4.
Say it in red! "People die when they are killed."Moral Event Horizon and Jerk Sue are YMMV, however.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
So what are the objective requirements, then? I don't think it's clearly spelt out, but I would say that the character must (1) do something wrong, and (2) not get punished.
The problem is, "wrong" has many different views. Not everyone believes killing is wrong, for example. There's near-consensus, but people frequently believe characters like the Joker should be killed. Batman doesn't agree that he has any right to kill the Joker, and Gotham seems to have no capital punishment for the insane.
So I agree that the only time we can agree this trope is played straight is when it is invoked.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here."it is invoked" includes when the fact that something is wrong is invoked, right?
Well, considering the last page... i guess it is crowner time. Can someone create a crowner, please?
edited 2nd Apr '12 1:32:39 PM by MagBas
Which options have to go into the crowner?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman- Limit Karma Houdini to proposital examples.
- Turn Karma Houdini an YMMV.
- Include any character realizing morally wrong acts in the definition, not only villains.
- Nothing.
edited 2nd Apr '12 1:49:10 PM by MagBas
Ravenous Sophovore
Crowner appended to thread.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.Bumping to votes
Bumping to votes again.
Ravenous Sophovore
Calling crowner in favor of expanding to include more than villains.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
My only comment on Karma Houdini is that many people seem to be using the trope to Complain About Characters You Don't Like. Exaggerating the import of a character's misdeed beyond how the other characters and the tone of the work itself treat it, ignoring Rule of Funny, attributing motivations to a character which aren't shown in the work itself—these are just some of the ways in which people try to force a character they don't care for into the trope.
Making Karma Houdini a YMMV trope would be a good first step towards stopping this.
It lost the crowner, and anyway, the "evil" and "no comeuppance" parts are pretty objective.
Indeed. I realized, too late, that the crowner was in fact closed. My bad. >.<
{{122}}Oh. No worry. In non-ymmv morality tropes, the right and the wrong are decided by the plot.
edited 15th Apr '12 2:09:27 PM by MagBas
Crown Description:
What would be the best way to fix the page?
If the hero realizes something the AUDIENCE guess is evil and it is not mentioned in-universe, it probably means it was not intended as an evil or wrong act.