Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dr Jekelius
For Scaroth, how exactly is wanting to bring back his race portayed?
As indicated, his race is said to be a warrior race that is vicious and cruel so they are definitely not benevolent. His wanting to save said race is portrayed as a bad thing because it will result in humanity never existing.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the doctor.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
His race being evil doesn't change that he wants to save it
Dr Jekelius
I feel I should point out that the Saxon Master (initially) wants to save the Time Lords and he is considered to be a Complete Monster.
Is it shown that Scaroth cares for his people past fanaticism? Emperor Tachyon had a similar goal, and counts because his only concern for his species was a superficial means to empower himself.
Edited by moctezuma2000 on Mar 28th 2024 at 11:44:32 AM
Yes, there is an element of Horror Hunger in that the more she's mutated the more ravenous she's become... but like the eldritch clown who inspired her there's a distinct element of sadism in that she doesn't have to eat children (or even humans) but she chooses to do so. The ritual she performed to become immortal in the first place also involves cannibalism, so all evidence points to it being something she chose.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Jekelius
Discounting weather Scaroth cares about his people, is he even bad enough? There have been a lot of baddies who have attempted Kill All Humans plots before and what he does doesn’t really sound that special.
In honor of Akira Toriyama
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
She doesn't even have to eat HUMANS?? Okay, yes to her.
No, it isn't.
Yes to Okano, Carnage number 237, Baron Harkonnen, Evelyn and Dr Jekelius.
No to Pocketcat, Kostas and Scaroth.
Here is my Apocalypse write-up:
- X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse: Apocalypse is a monstrous mutant who believes in Survival of the fittest. Apocalypse is hired by the Genoshan government to be the overseer of the enslaved mutants of Genosha, to keep them in line, and to ensure they continue to labor for the benefit of the Genoshan government. Apocalypse has his own agenda and is kidnapping mutants in Genosha and experimenting on them, to see if any of them are worthy to be his new Horsemen, not caring about the pain and suffering he is inflicting on them.
Edited by Overlord on Mar 28th 2024 at 7:45:03 AM
to Palpatine.
I'm still not convinced that Kostas Becker (or any Simpsons villain for that matter) is taken seriously enough, so ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to him.
Edited by ComputeryGuy1614 on Mar 30th 2024 at 6:01:08 AM
...Phenomenal
for Baron Harkonnen (insert a shocked face), Evelyn, and Jekelius.
Abstaining on Scaroth.
There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
RIP Toriyama
Yes to the Baron, Evelyn and Jekelus
- Love Lies Bleeding: Lou Sr. puts up an act as a kindly family man, but is in truth a ruthless mobster who will discard anything he supposedly loves for his own selfish gain. Running illegal guns to and from Mexico, Lou Sr. has long murdered anyone who stood in his way, dumping their bodies in a canyon that is littered with the remains of his victims. When his daughter Lou and her lover Jackie begin meddling in his affairs, Lou Sr. manipulates a drugged-out Jackie into killing a witness before trying to murder her. Despite his seeming care for his family, Lou Sr. allows his daughter Beth to stay trapped in a horribly abusive relationship because it's profitable; is heavily indicated to have murdered his wife when she was going to turn witness for law enforcement; and not only forced Lou to commit murder in his name, but tries to torture and kill her as well when Lou Sr. decides she is too stricken by conscience.
Goku Black
Jekelius
And a yes to another Harkonnen, Evelyn and Jekelus.
Alright everyone, it's been a while, but I am back and able to EP this fellow here.
What is the work?
Final Fantasy VII Remake and its Even Better Sequel Final Fantasy VII Rebirth are the first two parts of the planned trilogy of games remaking and reimagining Final Fantasy VII, with a hefty helping of Adaptation Expansion and a meta commentary on the very nature of remakes.
The main plot, much as in the original game, is the Megacorp Shinra Electric Power Company is literally sucking the life from the Planet for power and profit. They also uncovered a "corpse" they thought was an Ancient, or Cetra, humanoids that were the "Stewards of the Planet" long ago. Turns out said Ancient is actually a dormant Eldritch Abomination that descended from the stars that wants to consume all life on the planet and seep into the Lifestream to bring about the end. And they put its cells into people. Oops.
The crown jewel of this project is Sephiroth, greatest SOLDIER of all time and ultimate antagonist of FF VII. He doesn't count himself, for many reasons, and we have other keeps in the vein of President Shinra and Don Corneo (both of whom I am gonna need to update on the Cleanup Thread), but there's one last baddie whom is long overdue, and I held off on just for the formality of it all. And I'm sure this will shock you all.
Who is he? What has he done?
Professor Hojo is the head of Science in Shinra having a hand in just about every awful thing the Company does. Long before the beginning of the game, Hojo experimented on the captive Ifalna, the last living Cetra, and her daughter Aerith. His experiments pushed Ifalna so hard that when she finally managed to escape, she died shortly thereafter. Hojo had her body recovered, however, and Aerith was put on watch, since the way that Cetra work, they needed her to willingly seek out the "Promised Land", a land which Shinra believes is replete with infinite Mako energy to exploit.
Implanting Jenova Cells into SOLDIER candidates, said candidates will eventually degrade into puppets of Sephiroth, which Hojo knows and actively pursues. By the events of Remake proper, Hojo has created numerous abominations with his experiments, many of whom Was Once a Man. Entering his "Drum", the player encounters hundreds of pods, not to mention hundreds of unfortunate formerly human specimens he's twisted and destroyed. When Aerith is forced to surrender herself to Shinra for the sake of Barret's daughter, Marlene, Hojo personally speaks to you, gleefully rubbing in her face how he dissected Ifalna's corpse to see what reaction Aerith has. He also suggests... ugh... "breeding" Aerith with SOLDIER members to produce offspring for further research, something that even squicks out the comically evil Heidegger and Scarlet. But hey! At least he didn't try and breed her with Red XIII!
...thanks?
Further, upon learning Sephiroth is in the building, Hojo is pleased, and makes no effort to stop Sephiroth when he observes him absconding with Jenova's remains.
Rebirth sees Hojo as even worse, his first scene being to observe his Jenova infected Fiends attacking the Shinra-8 Cruise Ship. He wasn't behind it, but is fascinated hearing how his monsters were merging with the Black Robed People (whom are his former experiments that have fallen under Sephiroth's will) and happily tells the Captain to allow it to continue is let the Fiends continue to attack passengers, and that if he lives he'll have "pride of place" in his experimental facility. Naturally the Captain refuses this polite offer.
Arriving in Costa Del Sol and being pampered by a trio of beautiful women, Hojo brought his monsters with him along with a Tentacle Robot that kidnaps women - because of course Hojo has that. He himself wanted to personally observe the "Reunion" between his monsters and the Black Robes. He then almost succeeds in capturing the team, and creepily insinuates he wants to have Tifa impregnated for his experiments.
Ew.
He set up an AI at Shinra Mansion to troll and manipulate intruders into killing a failed experiment - or dying themselves. And then there's Chadley, an AI robot he made to help him in his experiments, whom he denied free will despite having sentience and sapience, though Chadley was able to break free by observing Cloud et al and becomes an ally to the part... except this game heavily implies Chadley is actually still at Hojo's Lab and he's actually a child he kidnapped, along with other children.
Ew.
Later still we see Roche, a recurring SOLDIER Third Class that sees Cloud as his Worthy Opponent with a healthy heaping of Ho Yay, being operated on by Hojo to boost his strength for one final dual with Cloud. Hojo remarks it's rare for anyone to volunteer for the procedure - which involves injecting a substantial dose of Jenova Cells into the subject. Immediately after his final boss fight, Roche becomes yet another Black Robe, whom Hojo scoops up to point him in the direction of Sephiroth.
And finally, ever wonder where Red XIII got his Tattoo? Welp, we have a fashback sequence where we play through Hojo painfully branding Red, gleeful all the while.
oh my god I hate Hojo and I hope he dies screaming in the final game
and I'm sure I'm missing stuff. that's how bad he is here.
Heinousness?
Easily. Hecking easily. Even without some of his most infamous crimes from the original game he is easily bad enough - and considering we'll almost certainly get those in the next game he'll probably end up even worse than in the original timeline. Hojo is responsible for so much suffering, both from his own experiments and his aiding and abetting the Shinra Corporation at large. Not to mention his personal cruelty like what he did to Ifalna, Aerith and Red XIII.
Mitigating factors?
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH oh, I hope you're joking!
Hojo's a misanthrope that only values people in as much as they can be specimens for him. The only value he expresses of Ifalna towards Aerith is how much he learned from her corpse.
He has a thing where he talks about how men of science must lead the way to a brighter future and he seems to have a sort of messiah complex, but to reiterate, he hates people and any "good intention" is just to show how much of a genius he is. If he could turn every person on the Planet into a Black Robe, he probably would, all to see Sephiroth, his masterpiece, succeed.
It's telling that he's the only person Aerith hates. She doesn't hate Sephiroth. She doesn't hate Shinra. But Aerith, whom shows compassion to just about anyone wishes she can do terrible things to Hojo. She also wants to rip off Corneo's goolies but that's just funny.
Also Hojo ruined the Beach Episode.
Conclusion
Yes to a Hojo hilariously predicted by Team Four Star's Machinabridged.
Seriously, their parody is closer than you'd think to what he's actually like in the Remake.
His story isn't finished yet, but like Corneo he is more than bad enough. And trust me, when Part 3 comes out I'll update his write up.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Mar 29th 2024 at 2:38:43 AM
Hi! :3
to Kostas. Just like South Park, It's difficult to have CMs due to the show's comedic nature.
Not the Eye
Hojo
Scaroth
Goku Black
Hojo
Fanfiction proponent
Hojo because why not?
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
to that scumbag Hojo
A villain from Probably the darkest book I read so far.
WHAT’S THE WORK?
The Angel of Vienna (link
) is an Historical fiction about a Nurse named Hannah Stern, and how she is sent to a Facility in Vienna with her Nephew, Willi for his mental treatment, while his Nazi father is absent.
WHO IS HE / WHAT DID HE DO?
Dr. Jekelius is the Medical Director of Am Steinhof Facility, a hospital for kids. Who is portrayed in the public as a busy, and hard-working leader of the Facility. In reality, Jekelius was far from a good doctor. His Hospital is rigged with abuse, neglect and horrendous situations. This, all caused by the fact that Jekelius wanted to save up the funds that were given by the Reich instead of using it for the children of the Asylum.
Deeming many of the patients as incurable, The doctor would deny any parent of the patients to visit the hospital and transfer the patients into a special ward called ‘Pavilion fifteen’, while it is stated to the public and some nurses that the special ward is for treatment, in reality, pavilion fifteen was used to massacre multiple children that he deemed ‘incurable’ through secretly poisoning them with Barbiturate Luminal to put them in coma and slowly kill them, some of the kids being young as 18 months old.
While Hannah Confronts Jekelius about it, Jekelius states how he is doing a greater good since they are incurable and is only going to suffer, but once Jekelius’s Massacre ends of killing Willi, Hannah sees all of this as a lie, not to mention multiple staff stated that the entire reason why Jekelius does this is to save up the funds given to him from the Reich.
After confronting the doctor, Hannah also discovers that most of the children were killed not by the orders of Reich’s orders but Jekelius’s Will. In order to stop the killing, Hannah interrogates Jekelius into giving her information regarding the survivor of the Ward, a child Named Hedji.
As Hannah goes to save Hedji and escape, Jekelius would call the Gestapo into apprehending her, killing her during her escape, while Hedji and Hannah Accomplice, a nurse named Margrethe, Escapes.
6 Years later, the Doctor is captured in Berlin, and is sent to trial for murdering 789 children in his hospital.
FREUDIAN EXCUSES / MITIGATING FACTORS?
He claims that he is doing all of this for the greater good, saying that he is freeing the kids suffering by killing them, but that is far from the case, not only he treats his patients with abuse even before killing them, but multiple hospital officials state that the entire reason why the doctor does all of his killings is just to save up the funds he got from the Government.
He is also not loyal to the Nazi Germany, as not only he kills kids for his own twisted enjoyment and ego,not from the orders of the Reich, he even killed the Protagonist’s nephew, the son of a Nazi Officer. While she was absent.
HEINOUS STANDARDS
Definitely the most heinous villain in the book, let’s see… He masterminded 789 Deaths by his own hands, all of them being children, mostly by poisoning them, putting them in coma and waiting for them to die by organ failure, Had murdered the nephew of the protagonist, and killed the protagonist at the end by proxy. Furthermore, with the death tolls also increasing instead of him personally conducting the deaths, he stands out as the worst of the villains, who are basically his minions.
FINAL VERDICT?
Yes.
Edited by PlatinumOni on Mar 28th 2024 at 6:12:50 AM