What exactly is the difference between Pretty Boy and Bishōnen?

On the Bishōnen page, it essentially states that the distinction is a) the character being young b) the beauty being effortless and c) androgyny figuring in. The thing is… a lot of those already fold into Pretty Boy, and they share a lot of examples, most of which ignore the subtle distinctions that Bishōnen apparently has (and even then, the Bishōnen page explicitly allows examples of “biseinen”, bypassing the apparent age distinction.) Are these two even distinct enough to be separate pages, especially given that “bishōnen”‘s literal meaning is “beautiful boy”?

Edited by Palindromee on Feb 12th 2022 at 2:50:12 PM

This has been brought up many times over the years but Bishounen was created first and Pretty Boy was created as the western equivalent. I don't see a point in keeping them separate either but I think they both have ongoing wick checks (because both tropes suffer from bad ZCE and misuse problems) listed on Wick Check Project, so maybe merging will be on the table if a TRS thread gets made.

If my understanding is correct, the discussions on the separation were really contentious c.f past discussion.

I'd be a little wary of opening a TRS thread because I think you really need to be familiar with both tropes and their environments to tell whether they are distinct or not. A wick check won't provide that information, and being experienced with only one trope will just lead to judgments based on Fan Myopia.

I’m fairly familiar with both western and eastern uses of the archetype, but I don’t think I’d be the right person to open a TRS thread about it because I’m not super experienced with the inner workings of the wiki just yet. I wonder if collecting examples shared between the two (and determining if the majority are shared) would be a good idea?

Edited by Palindromee on Feb 12th 2022 at 2:41:13 PM

I've actually (re-)started a wick check for those two tropes here a while ago. There's still a bit of progress needed (I'll add another batch when I find the time and if I remember to do so), so any help is more than welcome

I've long maintained that there is no functional difference between the tropes, but the Japanophiles keep screeching that there is, so...

Maybe if I watched more anime, I'd "get it".

Edited by Fighteer on Feb 12th 2022 at 5:03:50 AM

It's a culture and fandom difference largely, a Bishōnen is an anime specific type of Pretty Boy, but the distinction is fairly clearly spelled out in the description. Bishonen is supposed to look young, slender and feminine. A Pretty Boy covers similar territory but is broader than that, as they can be older and more masculine, but also leans toward a metrosexual look.

I watch plenty of anime, and the distinction is... subtle enough that merging the two wouldn't much matter, IMO. I think something that also gets ignored in the debate is that Pretty Boys appear in Japanese-produced media other than anime—take the examples of Raiden from Metal Gear, Link from Legend of Zelda, and Alucard from Castlevania. All of them are in their twenties (at least visually), and have the long hair and delicate features, but because of the art style, setting, and medium don't quite have the stereotypical "bishie" look. Both Link and Raiden are listed as examples of both tropes. It feels to me like Bishōnen is essentially a The Same, but More Specific variant of Pretty Boy, all things considered.

Incidentally, the Bishōnen page lists Vega from Street Fighter as an example of Hunk intersecting with the trope, which is kind of a contradiction from the "androgynous" qualifier.

Yeah, and I was just talking about Japanese media that isn't anime :P

Edited by Palindromee on Feb 12th 2022 at 5:57:00 AM

To be fair, Street Fighter is a Japanese video game series (and Vega in this context refers to the masked Spaniard with claws who is known as Balrog in Japan (and this three-way name switcheroo is not pertinent to the discussion)).

Edited by Nen_desharu on Feb 12th 2022 at 5:56:06 AM

If that's what makes Bishōnen tropeworthy, then does that mean we have to create a new trope for what each culture considers a Pretty Boy?

Tropes aren't always made in the most convenient order, and the wiki has had changing standards on what works. It's likely if bishonen was proposed today as a subtrope of pretty boy it may not make it, but the fact is both tropes have now existed for a long time and the energy needed to "fix" this overlap may not be worth it.

And if other cultures have unique terms and concepts related to existing tropes the option to split or subdivide shouldn't be thrown out immediately. Every idea should be considered independently and not based on abstract precedence.