What even is a "Trope In Aggregate"

Every time I reference something as being a TIA I get shot down as it not actually being on the Tropes in Aggregate index, even if it's a trope that's defined by the trend of it occurring a lot. For example, I referenced Heroes Prefer Swords as being one and it was pointed out that it wasn't actually on the index, even if the trope is literally just "heroes tend to use swords / the sword is the default heroic weapon". It only got added to the index after I had this discussion.

Most of the Tropes in Aggregate seem to be about gender, sexuality, or tokenism...even though not every token trope is on the index and some of them, like Girls Are Really Scared of Horror Movies or Wet Blanket Wife, don't sound like they actually belong there- since when are these defined by the trend of their existence and not by individual works? The list of what's on there makes it seem a lot like the only actual TIA are about gender or societal norms, and it's missing a lot of things I'd personally consider a Trope In Aggregate based on the description- like Spinosaurus Versus T. rex, or the expy tropes, or Only-Child Syndrome (under the old, pre-TRS definition). It's just bizarre.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 6th 2020 at 2:37:35 PM

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From what I can tell, a Trope in Aggregate is a trope that exists due to a meaningless occurrence that just happens to appear in a similar manner across numerous works. For example, World of No Grandparents is what I’d consider a Trope in Aggregate- as solely an artistic choice, it lacks meaning, but when it starts appearing in several works, it becomes a trope. Essentially, a Trope in Aggregate is a meaningless element that is only a trope due to a multitude of appearances in works. I wouldn’t consider tropes such as Girls Are Really Scared of Horror Movies and Wet Blanket Wife to be Tropes in Aggregate, since they originate from stereotypes, and thus hold meaning on their own.

Edited by jandn2014 on Dec 6th 2020 at 5:10:21 AM

back lol

Tropes in Aggregate is something that by itself sounds innocuous and irrelevant, but the commonality of examples indicates some sort of pattern. So instead of it being notable within the work itself, it becomes notable because it is used in many different works.

Black Dude Dies First is a prime example, in a situation where the characters may die a black character dying wouldn't be any different from a white character or asian character. But the fact in many stories the black character ends up being the first casualty created a curious pattern.

That's why the index tends to be about generalities, All Men Are Perverts, All Women Are Lustful, etc, because you're looking at a forest and trying to figure out where it came from.

Right; but then it seems that a lot of tropes are being miscategorized on the index or that they should be on the index. Like I said, looking at it now you'd get the impression it's only for gender-based tropes when that's not actually the case, and so many of the ones currently on there hold meaning in the individual appearance as well as in the trend.

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If you're talking about proposing a full clean-up that's another topic altogether, and I would agree it could use one. Current tropes listed like like Wet Blanket Wife wouldn't qualify because those are tropes with clear uses in the individual work.

I'm not sure if that's what I'm proposing though I'd be fine with a cleanup. I just feel the index and the classification is inconsistent and that's why I've always been confused about it- most of the tropes I've thought were TIA were not on the index and I'm still not sure why those ones wouldn't belong. Off the top of my head I can't remember all of them but it's happened several times.

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I wonder what the criteria are to make the list.

I agree that Wet Blanket Wife and Girls Are Really Scared of Horror Movies don't belong on that index. Those tropes can be evaluated by looking at the work alone.

Related question: is it possible for something to move out of TIA status? I don't think I'm wording this very well, but Black Dude Dies First, for example, feels like it has moved into public consciousness to the point that black characters will do Conversational Troping about it.

The Stations of the Canon, is apparently, a trope in aggregate; can't remember where it was mentioned on here, but it is one.

Conversational Troping doesn't really negate the "in aggregate" part.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I meant that people already expect the black dude to die first, in-universe and out.

Where's the line re: regular trope and TIA? I also thought Heroes Prefer Swords was a TIA because it's definitely present across works, but swords also have a longstanding association with heroism (think knights, chivalry etc). So it's present when analyzed as a pattern, but still something that holds up by itself.

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 8th 2020 at 12:21:00 PM

Yeah I am confused about TIA myself because things like Heroes Prefer Swords is notable on its own to me because it’s so entrenched in the public consciousness for the hero to be the one with a sword. I dunno if that’s the same as some like But Not Too Bi which is hard detect unless you analyze works that have bi characters as a whole.

Edited by MacronNotes on Dec 8th 2020 at 4:18:24 AM

Macron's notes

Heroes Prefer Swords exists because in a situation where villains or teammates have their own Weapon Of Choice, the main hero using a sword makes them more heroic. The trope is less notable to non-existent in a setting where everyone carries a sword as their standard weapon. It's also why we don't have a trope for "Heroes Prefer Spears" even though historically they were much more common.

Conversational Troping is a separate idea from Tropes in Aggregate, they are not exclusive. There are some Omnipresent Tropes that might count, as ubiquity is almost a prerequisite to the trope.

The dividing line between TIA and normal trope is that for a regular trope you can tell from one work alone that the phenomenon is a trope. For TIA you need to scrutinize several works to tell that the phenomenon is a trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

^ How can one safely assume something to be a convention when looking at one work in isolation?

I didn't mean that Conversational Troping and this are related. I meant that it's gotten to the point where a black guy choking first is expected by the audience and occasionally the characters. Does a trope in aggregate becoming very well established in its own right mean it's no longer a trope in aggregate?

In Fate/stay night the protagonist's Servant Saber is the only one who mains a sword. However, the Saber class specifically draws from medieval knight-type swordsmen characters. I don't think that's TIA at work; that's the hero(ine) using a sword because there's a legitimate cultural/historical reason for doing so.

You can apply that "less notable to nonexistent in a setting where there's lots of x" angle to a non-TIA, though; essentially it's just Averted Trope. Eg. A blonde example of The Ditz would not be notable in a setting where everyone of varying intelligence is blonde. If there are varying hair colors and the blonde is the only stupid one, only then is she a Dumb Blonde. But no one says Dumb Blonde is a TIA; it's a well-established stereotype.

Edited by Synchronicity on Dec 10th 2020 at 6:00:08 AM

No, it doesn't. A trope has to be fairly well-established to be Lampshaded or Discussed, but being "established" is irrelevant to Tropes in Aggregate, except that we require it to be fairly established before it can be observed in the first place.

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TIA is supposed to be for tropes that require comparison between multiple works. Sturgeon's Law is an example of what could be added to the index. It compares the quality of different works to say how much quality a genre has. Chromosome Casting would not be added, as you can tell a deliberate choice was made to cast only one gender by looking at just one work. A Fandom-Specific Plot, in contrast, is a comparison of several different works, an observation of which plots are popular for a particular group of fans. Black Dude Dies First is an observation that in the many works where mixed racial casting of characters die on-screen, the number of black characters dying is disproportionate to the number of non-black characters dying, and weighted heavily towards the beginning of the story. The event itself is chairs, but it takes on meaning when you compare it to other works and find it repeated.

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I suppose that you could say Tropes in Aggregate only have meaning in aggregate. Like The Bechdel Test; meaningless when applied to a single work, mildly disturbing when applied to an entire year's worth of works.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

wouldn't any Stock X trope (stock phrases etc) count as Ti A because you couldn't tell from as single work that it's being used quite frequently?

If their only meaning is in being a stock-phrase, maybe.

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I wouldn't say so. One can intuitively conclude that a line is a trope from one work alone. Yes, many stock phrases shouldn't be used in this manner but TIA is about how a trope works, not how it should work.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

But...can you? Stock Phrases aren't even technically tropes. Most convey no meaning at all. They're just a thing that gets said a lot.

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That means that they need to be sent to the great wiki in the sky, not that they are TIA. Commonly Used Lines would be a TIA trope, perhaps, but stock phrases themselves, no.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

See, I just can't follow that logic. If I read a book or watch a show and hear a Stock Phrase, I have no way of knowing it's a Stock Phrase unless I've heard it or read it before. It doesn't become apparent until you notice it in more works. In isolation, Stock Phrases are just dialogue, with no obvious meaning in the work to make it stand out as a trope.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 14th 2020 at 12:14:23 PM

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The logic isn't that stock phrases are a regular trope rather than TIA, but that they (perhaps with one or two exceptions) aren't a trope period.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Okay, that's fair.

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