Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

Yeah, second is either just the kink they're going for or it's a censorship thing.

Like. It's Japan. If they wanted to draw the characters naked, they very easily could've. Looking at the two magazines it was published in (web service Comic Gum and later rebooted in Monthly Action), there are plenty of series that feature nudity (even if they're Barbie Doll Anatomy levels of nudity) so I think it's a personal choice.

Definitely not Values Dissonance at any rate.

EDIT: Above all, it hasn't been 20 years since the series was published.

Edited by Zazie122 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 7:48:28 AM

The time limit doesn't apply to location-based Values Dissonance. I think it's a "these sex things are less taboo in Japan" entry but it's not really clear about the why or how.

Alright, apologies for that misunderstanding!

Either way, I don't really think either points in the entry count all that much. From what I remember of the OVA (I watched it years ago), the characters know there's a stigma about the industry and their voice acting work, and it's discussed in-universe, so it's not like it's completely glossing over the subject matter.

Edited by Zazie122 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 9:52:17 AM

Found an example on Persona 5 that I find questionable:

• The game's Central Theme is a big one. In Western cultures (particularly America), "stand up to corrupt authority rather than blindly following it" comes across as a Captain Obvious Aesop, given how the West tends to value and champion personal freedoms over societal harmony. But such a central theme is extremely relevant (and actually quite radical) for Japan. Respect for social superiors is heavily ingrained into the culture, to the point of being hard-wired into the language itself. All of the Phantom Thieves' targets are in positions that demand respect from Japanese society, which is why they got away with their actions for so long.

Look, no offense, but whoever wrote this clearly didn't do their research. People keeping quiet about horrible crimes isn't a Japan-exclusive problem. Far from it, in fact. There have been plenty of cover-ups in the West just like the ones that happen in this game (of which I will not name to avoid controversy). Besides, even if America value "the freedom of the individual", that doesn't mean they always practice what they preach. I think this should be removed.

Yeah, cut.

Americans talk a big game about freedom, but they're just as likely to give into authority as any other society.

@Arthur Eld Unfortunately, I can't cut it myself because I've been suspended from editing for the foreseeable future.

Better Off Dead:

• Values Dissonance:
  • Due to an increased awareness of teenagers commiting suicide due to their heart being broken, bullying, or a very bad home life, this movies attempts at making comedy out of our teenage lead attempting suicide might have been funny at the time, but it comes across as incredibly insensitive today and possibly might even be borderline offensive to those who actually did have someone they know take their own life or may have even attempted it themselves. Suicide has always been a taboo subject. Plus this movie is a Black Comedy.
  • There's Ricky, whose skeezy behavior would get him in major trouble these days, made worse by the accusations against his actor decades after the movie. ZCE. The reference to the actor makes me think this belongs under Harsher in Hindsight.
  • As for the two Asian boys who are always seen driving around in a Ford Falcon while one of them talks exclusively like a sports announcer? Well, let's just say that they rate alongside Short Round, Long Duk Dong, and Co on the list of problematic heavily-stereotypical depictions of Asians in the 1980s. This seems low context. Is driving a Ford Falcon and talking like a sports announcer a stereotype associated with asians?

Agree on all scores.

The third point sounds like it might be legit, but needs context about how those characters are racist stereotypes. It should probably be commented out.

This is on Literature:

Heather Has Two Mommies was terribly controversial for many years because it was about two women raising a child together. Over the years, more and more Gay Aesop picture books like Mama and Mama (and its Spear Counterpart Papa and Papa), And Tango Makes Three, and King and King have come out. The only thing that's really controversial about the book is that some versions mention how Heather was conceived using in-vitro.

This seems more like Once Original, Now Common, but I could be wrong.

That's definitely Once Original, Now Common. In-vitro fertilization doesn't even seem like a controversial issue, I'd say cut.

IVF is very much still controversial (check Alabama news), but that's beside the point. The work isn't really the one with dissonant values to modern day, as the entry shows it was considered controversial because it went against the values of the time.

It's definitely not Values Dissonance.

YMMV.Dragon Ball

• Values Dissonance: Several of the jokes in the early parts of the manga when it was still largely a comedy have not aged well:
  • One very early chapter features Oolong drugging Bulma and trying to molest her in her sleep, which is Played for Laughs. Though Oolong wasn't fully reformed at this point, the fact that Bulma was fully aware that Oolong might try something like that makes her eventual acceptance of him feel unearned.
  • Similar to Oolong is Master Roshi. He frequently tells Bulma that he'll only help her out if she gives him a peek or fondle, which in after the #MeToo era would be considered coercion and when Bulma doesn't need a favour from him, he just helps himself to her. The fact that Bulma was canonically 15 years old when this occurs makes it significantly worse. He also told Goku and Krillin that he'd only train them if they brought him a woman, making them complicit in his attempt to get a sex slave. Keep in mind this guy has enough physical strength to take on martial artists in their prime.
  • General Blue being a Depraved Homosexual is played absolutely straight, which would've been considered more acceptable for publication in the mid '80s. The anime makes Blue even worse by implying him to be a pedophile on top of being gay.
  • The manga's explicit depictions of nudity and sexuality in its early years fail to resonate well with Western audiences, particularly in America, due to the fact that most of the characters who are shown naked or involved in sexual activities are below the legal age of consent in much of the country.^note Bulma, being 15 at the start of the series, is below the age of consent to begin with, and even when she turns 16, nineteen states, including movie and TV hub California, define the legal age of consent at 17 or 18. The fact that 11-year-old Goku's genitals are shown more than anyone else's doesn't help, nor does the fact that Bulma once attempted to seduce him in exchange for his Dragon Ball.
  • Though he's most likely meant to resemble a Djinn, Mr. Popo's appearance is a point of contention for Western fans, since his pitch-black skin and red lips make him look uncomfortably similar to a minstrel character. The actual black characters in the series aren't much better, since Toriyama tends to draw them with cartoonishly large pink lips.

Is it me or do these entries (particularly the first two) feel off? These feel kind of passive aggressive.

I mean... a lot of viewers do find Mr. Popo's design uncomfortable. I've seen jokes about it for years.

(I'm not familiar enough with the series to comment on the second-to-last bullet.)

I'm not really focusing on that example, just the ones that complain about the sexual jokes early on in the series.

Also that Roshi entry just implied that people only saw a certain scene as cohesion after #Me Too!. I doubt that honestly and people saw it as that beforehand.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 14th 2024 at 12:46:18 PM

There are a lot of harsher in hindsight entries that assume noone found sexual abuse wrong before metoo and that everyone knows it's wrong after metoo, when in reality, we're living through a massive backlash against victim advocacy and feminism in general because people got mad about the mere existence of metoo

Yeah, it's one of those "harassment wasn't bad until recently". Much like how many examples think racism / police brutality was invented when BLM started.

Yeah, Values Dissonance + Harsher in Hindsight entries on the line of "(sexual harassment scene) became uncomfortable after #MeToo" and "(scene showing racism) became uncomfortable after BLM" always feel really annoying to me.

It's just dumb to act like sexual harassment jokes went from ok to not ok from one day to another because of #MeToo. These things change in a more gradual way. I mean, even in 2010, years before #MeToo, comedy movies had a different attitude towards sexual harassment played as comedy than 80s comedy films had.

Acting like values change because of One event feels like not understanding how social change works, or even how things lead to that one event to begin with.

I don't think the Roshi example counts as written, but it could work as the standard "sex jokes in a family show in Japan don't translate as well in America."

Though does it count if people thought it was funny at the time? (I don't know if they did or not, I'm not a Dragon Ball fan, but y'know)

I think kid Goku going around nude could count as a region-based example, it wasn't meant to be sexual in the slightest and Japan and much of Europe are a lot more lax when it comes to nonsexual nudity compared to America.

Edited by ninjamitsuki2 on Mar 18th 2024 at 3:13:02 PM

Agreed on the nude Goku stuff. Earthbound had to add pajamas to Ness' sprite at the start of the game in America for similar Values Dissonance about child nudity.

Edited by PhiSat on Mar 18th 2024 at 10:29:38 AM

Values Resonance:

Neither of these seem like examples to me. The first one is a stretch (has there ever been a culture that didn't view cheating on your SO as a bad thing?), and the second one is just a happy story. Which is nice and all, but no real values being imparted there.

I agree

Agree with cutting.