Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment - Violations, misuse, and other issues

I support the "no politicians rule." After all, criminals are law-breakers, not law-benders.

What if they were convicted of corruption? Actually then it would just be a page of politicians.

I also support the "no politicians" rule as it also runs the risk of incurring Flame Bait.

I suppose it's not technically impossible for a legit criminal to get into office following their crimes, but it's definitely not as common. It would require them to not get caught until later

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 1st 2024 at 7:07:07 AM

Again, if we're counting terrorists (currently in scope for the page) then there's an argument that Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Nelson Mandela etc. qualify as political leaders who were criminals first.

All were (rightly or wrongly) tried and convicted before they held office. Adams was even part of an attempted prison escape plan.

But their actions and prosecutions were all at least partly political, too.

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 1st 2024 at 12:20:40 PM

It might be a good idea to take this to Wiki Talk due to how much discussion there's already been in this thread, particularly regarding the page's scope.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 1st 2024 at 7:26:55 AM

My general take on it is that the requirements for inclusion on this page would be that:

1. A person is convicted as a criminal by a commonly accepted lawful authority (i.e. either the justice system of their country, or some sort of international court)

2. They are known primarily for their crime rather than anything else they've done (in function, this means that anyone who's done enough to have their own creator page wouldn't qualify to be placed on this one)

3. Their crime is referenced in enough pieces of media to merit the presence of a Useful Notes page.

I feel like a lot of politicians would fail points 2 and 3; they're already prominent enough that their corruption isn't the sole thing they're known for.

That said, simply being a politician isn't an instant disqualification, it just limits it to politicians who are only well known because they got busted for their criminal acts. I also don't think War Crimes would qualify for this page; it may have the word "crime" in it, but the definition is pretty clearly distinct from the type of crime that this page is about.

To be clear, in my earlier posts I wasn't thinking of terrorism so much as, like... murder or theft or something.

Not sure if this properly fits here, but this seems like the best thread to bring it up

OddFriendship.Real Life includes many examples where the "Oddness" in the friendship is the fact that the individuals have different political beliefs.

Edited by Paperfly on Apr 2nd 2024 at 10:10:08 AM

Bump

Examples of odd friendships involving having different political views should be cut as they constitute Chairs.

Politicians of differing political views befriend each other all the time, given that they often share other common interests.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Apr 4th 2024 at 11:47:31 AM

From the Religion folder of The Evilsof Free Will:

The LDS Church believes that Lucifer planned to do this. While Jesus offered himself as an atoning sacrifice to allow those who sinned to be resurrected and have a chance of returning to Heavenly Father, Lucifer offered to ensure that everybody would get back to heaven in return for all of the power and glory. He planned to do this by taking away people's free will and prevent them from being able to sin. When his plan was rejected he and his supporters refused to back down and after the War in Heaven, were banished to the outer darkness, where they continue to try and upset the Plan of Salvation.

Somewhat ironically, most Satanic sects reverse the roles, with Satan being the advocate of free will and God being the overbearing authority trying to stamp it out.

This trope is at least referenced in just about every sect of Christianity. If there was no free will, Satan would never have rebelled, and Adam would have never eaten the Forbidden Fruit. In fact, there wouldn't be a need for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. On the other hand, the reason that there is free will is the fact that God created it that way.

In fact, one interpretation is that, because an all-knowing God would obviously know that the existence of free will would lead to evil, He obviously considered the existence of all evil in the world to be an acceptable alternative to a world without free will.

Most of these examples are Newer Than They Think; The Bible itself mentions nothing in regards to free will (as it wasn't a topic largely considered), so all interpretations are largely based on Thomas Aquinas's works.

The Book of Exodus, for example, has Pharaoh wanting to let the Jews go after just the first couple of plagues, with God telling Moses he's going to make Pharaoh change his mind, with the Bible saying that He did so when it gets to that point in the story, and later recapping that He did so. The phrase "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" comes up a lot.

Yet it still is Older Than Feudalism. St. Augustine, the famous church father who lived around 400 AD, wrote extensively on free will and had arguments about it with both the Manicheans (a non-Christian religion of which he was a former member) and, more famously, with Pelagius (a British Christian monk). Augustine believed in free will, but also believed that humanity was tainted with original sin and would therefore be in need of divine grace to achieve moral perfection. Pelagius denied this necessity and the impact of original sin on anyone else but Adam. Augustine was not the first church father to write on free will. Among others Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus have all written on the subject. Furthermore, even though the Bible does not raise the question directly, reading the narrative will naturally provoke the question, especially concerning Adam and Eve's actions surrounding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Did they eat its fruit willingly or was it predetermined? If free will is good and eating it gave humanity this, why was it wrong? Etc).

Another interpretation is that God created free will so that mankind would have the choice to follow Him or not. He could have not put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden in the first place, but if He hadn't left that door open, wouldn't Adam and Eve technically have been living in enslavement, even if it was enslavement in paradise? (Though it should be noted that Adam and Eve in this story were depicted as naive and gullible, not all-knowing and wise, after all, if they could think for themselves on how to discern what is bad from what is good, there would have been no need for the tree of knowledge in the first place, so while they may have had the free will to eat from it, it wasn't exactly a choice they came to using critical thinking and reason.)

Jews tend to follow the above interpretation due to the importance of freedom to their religion.

The interpretation in Paradise Lost is that it was necessary for Adam and Eve to have the choice as it meant they had free will. Even if God knew they would do this, it was still their choice.

Book of Job gives an interesting view on Satan as a tempter whose sole purpose was to tempt the faithful and then denounce them as a test of faith, and he was given that role by God. It was seriously implied that God was in command of both Good and Evil, thus being beyond such.

Good grief. It starts off decent enough with the LDS Church's rather novel interpretation of Lucifer but every "example" after that is ether obnoxious natter, pointless bible trivia or an actual honest to God theological debate. I believe that none of this belongs in this website as it is a very big Ro CEJ violation, and it makes the folder look sloppy and message board-ish. Permission to delete everything except for the LDS Church example please.

Yeah. That seems suspect. Do we know who added that?

By multiple users quite a long time ago

Probably from when the rules on this were less strict I presume?

So Anon Fangeek Girl changed a bunch of the Danganronpa entry on Trans Audience Interpretation, and the edits they made feel weirdly hostile to people headcanoning Chihiro as trans, among other things (i bolded the statements that seemed extra sus):

• Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc:
  • The Danganronpa series's most common candidate for transgender interpretations is Chihiro Fujisaki, a cis male character in the canon of the games who, being bullied at a young age for being "weak" and "unmanly", decided to crossdress and present as female in order to escape it and better conform to Japanese gender roles. Canonically, Chihiro himself confirms he's a guy in School Mode, but a lot of fans refuse to accept this.
    • Crossing the Pacific hit Chihiro's story hard with Values Dissonance; with America's looser gender roles, a man with openly feminine hobbies is seen as more acceptable, and while it's still reasonable that Chihiro would be bullied for it because Kids Are Cruel, the idea that said bullying would drive him to present as a girl to everyone in his life breaks many Americans' suspension of disbelief, even by the standards of a series where Chihiro also created an AI advanced enough to be functionally indistinguishable from a human on an old laptop he scrounged up. Trans audiences are also uncomfortable with how Chihiro's gender is only revealed after he's dead (except to Mondo, his killer, who also promises to keep his secret) by examining his corpse, and the possibility that he might be trans and still in the closet is never brought up; once the big reveal happens, everyone immediately switches pronouns and takes it for granted he was a Wholesome Crossdresser, even though the one who delivers the relevant exposition is Monokuma, who would absolutely not be above outing Chihiro against their will or misgendering them just to disrespect their memory. Pointing out that these fans could also be said to be erasing Chihiro's gender identity by insisting he's trans when he's not is a great way to start a fight.
    • While it isn't quite as prevalent as viewing the character as a trans girl, there are also a good number of fans who split the difference between the game's text and fanon by interpreting Chihiro as a transgender boy, making his story about a transman who is bullied out of his preferred gender identity because nobody thinks that he can have a female body and a feminine demeanor but still consider himself to be male.

now i'll fully admit i have very little knowledge on Danganronpa and most of my limited knowledge comes from what i see in the wild on Tumblr, but in my opinion (and i may be just reading too hard into it, probably) the edited entry leans too hard on the (kinda shitty) idea that headcanoning male wholesome crossdressers as transfeminine is somehow 'erasing' feminine cis men, and the snipe towards transmasc Chihiro readings in another subbullet doesn't help. also saying that fans "refuse to accept this" feels kind of snipey as well but idk for sure.

again if i'm reading too much into this please stop me, but the new entry feels biased (for lack of a better state) in its current state, and rambly and kind of dances around the points on why fans hc Chihiro as trans. permission to revert back to the original version? and should i send Fangeek a rocej notifier for it or something?

Edited by worldwidewoomy on Apr 16th 2024 at 1:58:41 PM

Well, the responses I got indicate that the examples I showed are old leftovers from before the rules got more strict and threads like this one existed to gave this site some form of quality control. If no one else has any objections I am going to delete all of the examples I brought up except for the starting paragraph.

It all reads more like Broken Base mess than anything useful for Trans Audience Interpretation. From what I know, having been mutuals with Danganronpa fans over the years, a lot of people who use the Chihiro headcanon, even if aware of the Values Dissonance, are knowingly employing Fanon Discontinuity because his whole thing leans a lot into Unsettling Gender-Reveal and they might just relate to Chihiro more as a trans girl anyway. The editing takes too much of a side and gets hostile. That whole entry is a bit complicated because I think the Values Dissonance is worth noting, but it might run a bit long.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 16th 2024 at 6:14:08 AM

From Fallout (2024)'s YMMV page, particularly the second bullet point:

• And You Thought It Would Fail:
  • Leading up to the premiere, there was much grumbling and speculation over the quality of the series due to the very long track record of terrible live-action adaptations of various Video Game properties, with diehard fans in particular being worried about it turning out to be as lackluster and divisive as Halo (2022) or Resident Evil (2022). After the premiere was wildly well received by audiences and critics alike, many of these same fans were pleasantly surprised (though some had issues concerning the lore aspects).
  • To a lesser extent, a loud minority of "culture war youtubers" (content creators known for exaggerated and inflammatory takes criticizing "forced diversity" in media) were quick to lambast the show leading up to the premiere due to its female and black protagonists claiming it would bomb as bad as The Marvels (2023) or the aforementioned Halo TV series, and that it will be universally loathed by everyone, especially fans. When the show dropped and became highly praised by fans and regular viewers alike, most of this group quickly sung the series' praises, moved on to different media to criticize, or (in more extreme cases) let their personal biases justify them giving the show a negative review. That being said... a portion of that small minority didn't even watch the show, and just confirmed their biases with a couple clips (namely, Titus running away from a bear being seen as an insult to the Brotherhood and Lucy and Max's "sex talk") without the context that explain what is happening in these scenes.

This is the grinded down version from an earlier addition after I sent the user who initially added it a notifier. Is it good enough or does it need to be grinded down some more?

yeah their new rewrite feels hostile. fwiw here's what the Chihiro entry looked like before Fangeek's changes, pulled from the history (which i think actually fits, aside from being less one-sided and ranty:

• Many fans see Chihiro as a trans girl in spite of the games saying otherwise, pointing out how, while the concept of being bullied for being gender-nonconforming is a real issue, the fact that they saw presenting as female so that they wouldn't get bullied as a solution is seen as ridiculous even by the standards of the game's usual tone. On top of that, many elements of Chihiro's storyline are seen as making more sense and being more relatable if they were a trans character, including their fear of their assigned gender at birth being revealed and them being a software programmer^note While in-universe this is supposed to be a clue that they are actually male, "software programmer" is, in real life, a stereotypically-popular profession for trans women. Finally, many trans fans have pointed out that their storyline indulges in transphobic storytelling tropes^note Having their birth sex being revealed through groping; having the people around them react in horror and immediately use the opposite pronouns as soon as they find out about said sex; being the victim of what could be seen as a trans panic attack that are excused with the non-justification of them actually being a crossdressing cis boy, and that, by virtue of calling attention to said tropes, Chihiro being trans is actually the less problematic interpretation of their character.
• While it isn't quite as prevalent as viewing the character as a trans girl, there are also a good number of fans who split the difference between the game's text and the territory it goes into by interpreting Chihiro as a transgender boy. While doing so unfortunately doesn't confront the worst of the tropes in their storyline, it at the very least covers making their backstory seem less outlandish and adds an extra layer to the character's intended themes, as the experience of getting picked on for not fitting others' ideas of what a man "should" be and presenting as female for fear of further negative attention is an unsurprisingly, if sadly, relatable one to many transmasculine individuals.

Edited by worldwidewoomy on Apr 16th 2024 at 7:06:09 AM

I found this on YMMV.Stellar Blade and I'm unsure if it is ROCEJ breaking or not

• Tainted by the Preview: Much like NieR: Automata and Goddess of Victory: NIKKE before it, Eve's design being marketed as a selling point of the game proved to be an extremely controversial and divisive topic due to the nature of the trope, and unlike NIKKE, Stellar Blade has the dubious honor of being marketed to a much larger general audience. Despite the fact that the game hadn't even released yet, certain unsavory fans and detractors of the game had already poisoned discourse on it overall prior to release — the former being fans with controversial politics that latched onto the game due to a misguided belief that Eve's design is a counterpoint against female characters from Western games that they find "ugly" (such as Mary Jane in Marvel's Spider-Man 2) and not out of a genuine interest in the title, and the latter being critics that dismiss the game out of hand despite it only existing as a demo due to the game's unashamed pandering and attacking fans and even the developers (something that even gaming news outlets like IGN France have done in a now-walked-back and apologized-for statement) for supporting something seen as misogynistic and harmful, with both sides using the game as a cudgel against the other.^note That said, the less-vocal majority of both fans and critics don't subscribe to their "fellows'" ways of thinking, and either have genuine interest in the game or engage with it enough to have good-faith criticisms respectively. Regarding the fanbase in particular, there are still a sizeable number of more progressive fans who still enjoy sexualized designs such as Eve's, including transgender women and transfeminine people who see such designs as a feminine ideal to strive for, and the broader LGBT Fanbase who enjoys the Camp aspects of such designs and are a reason why series such as Bayonetta have such a large queer demographic.

a few pages back we discussed the use of tropes applying to real life in Quiet On The Set, and ended up removing a good amount of tropes

~I Love Cookies 875 added most of them back with edit reason "NRLEP doesn't include works *about* real life such as a documentary"

pointing them here to discuss

Yeah, apart from it being a tad too long and off-topic at points, I'm pretty sure mentioning the culture war stuff is risky in general so that could use some grinding down. How about this, which is more to the point:

• Tainted by the Preview: When Eve's design was being marketed as a selling point of the game, some people took issue with it and called it misogynistic and oversexualized, with certain gaming news outlets like IGN France going as far as to calling the design "a doll sexualized by someone who has never seen a woman." (which has since been retracted in an apology due to backlash)

Edited by Super_Weegee on Apr 16th 2024 at 2:58:35 PM

Can we amend the chained sinkholes? Otherwise reads ok.

The rewrite is both shorter and doesn't violate the ROCEJ, so it gets a from me.