Hazbin Hotel pilot & Helluva Boss

Chaz would say "I'm going to fuck you!" and mean it

I'll admit I have come to that same conclusion as well. A lot of the villains of Helluva aren't really it as they are kinda played for jokes even at the best of times.

Crimson had some menace to him when we first met him but his second appearance severely downplayed his previous menace and made him look like a joke. It's odd too as his first episode did have some joke scenes too but their was an underlying sense of horror to it too as half of the time he was making barely hidden threats of a beating or death to Moxxie. And considering what we know of Moxxie's childhood and what happened to his Mom he would make well on that promise if he got Moxxie alone.

Striker also has some menace to him and he managed to torture Stolas in a scene that is kinda reminiscent of what Valentino does to Angel but even then the jokes about his ego didn't quite land to me. Hes a dick but hes not even a tiny bity funny about it either like Crimson. Hes just kinda there.

Stella is a hard one for me. I don't really agree with the idea that someone abusive needs to be given a tragic backstory or something but I'll admit that their really isn't much of a threat to her and she isn't really even Love to Hate. Valentino, Vox, and Adam are real pieces of work in Hazbin but they still have a tiny bit of entertainment value in the sense that you just want to see them get their absolute shit kicked in. Ironically Stella feels way too down to earth for that. Shes a spoiled royal and a abusive wife that seems apathetic to Octavia at best. Not to mention that anything villianous she does isn't really her, its just her calling favors.

C.H.E.R.U.B and DHORKS only appear once and just get dumpstered or slaughtered. C.H.E.R.U.B looks even more strange in hindsight considering how Hazbin reveals that the rest of the angels barring the exorcists aren't even aware of whats going on in Hell and are horrified to find out.

Andrealphalus has done nothing of note yet and to be honest he just comes as a fruitier evil Stolas to me which isn't very interesting.

Honestly I think thats the main issue with Helluva Boss, their really isn't a central antagonist for the show to rally against and the villains we have seen so far either get smashed apart or have not much menace or entertainment value to them.

I'm frustrated with Stella the most because as the one who's most affected by Stolas' actions, making her a Flat Character feels like a huge missed opportunity. I think they introduced Andrelaphus because they realized how they need more of an interesting threat to Stolitz

I wonder if one of the reasons we don't see as many assassinations is so people forget the villain part of IMP's Villain Protagonist. I know I've brought it up before but making all the humans obnoxious feels like a (debatably lazy) way to making your protagonists sympathetic. And in fairness, I've rarely seen a sympathetic assassin protagonist go after someone who didn't have it coming in some way

In regards to Striker, I have always maintained that The Other Darrin was the problem. Norman Reedus' Striker sounds like a legitimately dangerous, scary, highly-volatile bounty hunter, while Edward Bosco's Striker sounds like a parody of that concept who builds statues of himself with huge erect penises. He's largely written the same (barring Badass Decay), and I think the voice direction is the largest contributing factor.

Edited by ReginaldOgron5 on Feb 14th 2024 at 9:51:18 AM

x4 Chaz: I've got a big dick. Adam: So anyway, then we fucked, and it was awesome.

It also doesn't help that despite being the main antagonist of this season, we barely see her in the first season. In all of season one, all Stella did was yell at Stolas for cheating on her and hiring Striker to kill Stolas for the affair. Which while extreme, you see where she's coming from and paints her in a somewhat sympathetic character since we knew next to nothing else about her. Then season two comes around and we're now being told that Stella was literally the worst, ever since her childhood who likes to torment Stolas just because she finds it fun, even before the affair? Wow, way to take an interesting angle we could have taken her character and just wash it down the drain.

For comparison, In the first episode of Hazbin Hotel we know who Adam is, what his personality is like, what his goals are and why he does what he does. We learn more of Adam in the first episode of Hazbin than we know of Stella's backstory across two seasons of Helluva Boss.

Edited by AFan on Feb 14th 2024 at 11:07:33 AM

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. The Fantastic Racism and classicism has always been there with Stella - Remember that her main problem with the affair was never that Stolas cheated on her, but that he did it specifically with an imp. She wanted him dead for cheating on her with the "wrong" class/species. That's not a sympathetic motivation.

Is Stella wasted potential as an interesting villain? Yes. Absolutely. She's a Flat Character who stands out from other flat villains in that she's also boring and not even remotely threatening.

But in my eyes, Stella was never meant to come across as sympathetic. Ever.

OT: But this does bring to mind an interesting question about the difference in writing between HH and HB:

Aside from Viv and Brandon, who else does the writing for HB? How big is the crew of writers for Spindlehorse?

IIRC, doesn't HH have, like, a slew of experienced writers on there? I have a vague recollection of Maxwell Atoms at least working on the pilot. Perhaps the writing is so different between then because one show was writers with literally decades of experience?

Exactly. If Hazbin managed to make Valentino a vile unsympathetic abuser but still interesting and entertaining at the same time, there's no reason Stella couldn't have been too.

Y'know, this line from Stella "I like tormenting you. I want to keep reminding you of what you did." pisses me off. Because that's when I knew they were going to dump any nuance of her in favor of 'Evil for evils sake' kind of villain. At least with Jack Horner being a Card-Carrying Villain, at least he was entertaining in just how much he owned up to being the biggest piece of shit. With, Stella, we have nothing else to work with outside of wanting Stolas dead. We don't even know how she interacts with Octavia.

Catholic definition of Envy and Leviathan as social media influencer make sense, because Deadly Sins interpretation of Envy is basically about wanting to ruin person you are feeling envy towards, like with slandering them to take them down a peg.

You know an episode premise I'd love to see? One where I.M.P are sent after a target who isn't an Asshole Victim.

The way I see it happening, maybe the person in question could be, at first glance, an outrageous parody of Incorruptible Pure Pureness - Like, old-school Disney Princess levels of wholesome and sweet. And I.M.P's various assassination attempts would blow up in their faces.

I could also see that as a Blitzo and Millie-mission, since we know Moxxie, as the most punch-clockiest of this troupe of Punch-Clock Villains^note ... OK, maybe Loona has him beat by a small margin - She's mostly just a bratty young woman who's only participated in one hit and went on a Roaring Rampage of Rescue another time, refuses to kill children and innocents, so maybe he'd sit it out; Give him a B-plot with Loona while we're at it, with Loona as the focal point. As far as we know, Blitzo and Millie still don't give a shit as to whether their target "deserves" it or not... So, perhaps the episode would put that attitude to the test? Maybe they'd slowly begin to see where Moxxie is coming from - Perhaps even get seen by the target and still get treated kindly by them despite bering demons - and ultimately decide to let the target go...

And then maybe the target's luck would run out and they could, like, die an unrelated Undignified Death or something as a bit of a Black Comedy Burst.

I think I'd like this setup because it would have the "Blitzo and Millie" and "Loona and Moxxie" setup that I've been dying to see - Millie and Loona would get Character Development that doesn't revolve around their spouse and father, and each group's relationships would get explored and get developed.

Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Feb 14th 2024 at 8:42:03 PM

Have I.M.P. actually do their job that Blitz slept with Stolas to take the grimoire so that I.M.P. could stay afloat AND have Millie and Loona have development? And take away from the Blitz and Stolas drama!? Get out of here with that crazy talk! /jk

Speaking of Millie, was there confirmation that Millie and Sallie would have a role in Ghostfuckers? And if so, who wants to bet it's going to be the B-plot?

Edited by AFan on Feb 14th 2024 at 11:51:48 AM

Ngl, we need a Blitzo and Millie episode

Seeing Stars already hinted they have a friendly yet bizarre relationship

Having just the two of them go on an assassination job together would be hilarious

I'd love for the reason the hit is even happening is that the sweet person is just too damn sweet that it pissed off some guy, that guy wound up in hell trying to kill the sweet person and is just asking IMP to take the sweetie out to finish his goal.

They get hired to murder Mr. Rogers

Edited by AFan on Feb 15th 2024 at 12:06:26 PM

Mr. Brandon Rogers

TARGET: ”Here’s the guy/gal I want dead!” (shows photo of target sitting in a field reading to children, animals flocking to them and an almost angelic light shining behind them. Alternatively, a Sound Of Music or Storyteller Jesus meme parody)

BLITZO AND MILLIE: ”Ew.”

Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Feb 15th 2024 at 9:19:09 PM

Okay but them actually being hired to kill Brandon Rogers would be really funny.

Brandon Rogers must be really envious of that Brennon Ragers guy's success.

@ Magma Tea: I actually have a story concept of that. Some client sends them after a guy and when said guy is nice they wonder "wait, why is our client pissed?" He's so nice they have doubts and fumble trying to assassinate them, and when they're just about to blast them...then they learn their target is a Sheep in Sheep's Clothing and their client is the real Asshole Victim, who only wanted to kill them for a ridiculously petty reason like beating them in the school talent show 20 years ago. So they just scare him into giving their money and beat up the client for wasting their time

The I.M.P. commercial in the pilot included a testimony from a client who had hired them to kill the jogger who saw him hiding his murdered wife's corpse, and "Murder Family" had Blitzø and Millie be perfectly fine with killing a woman who seemingly only had committed adultery and ruining a seemingly wholesome and innocent family in the process, so I don't think anyone other than Moxxie would have much issue with I.M.P. taking out a Sheep in Sheep's Clothing for an Asshole Victim as long as the check clears (and even he might not object, given how badly the events of "Murder Family" had traumatized him, both from the family turning out to be psychopathic murderers/cannibals/taxidermists and from how his attempt to spare their lives ended up getting them killed).

Now, after all of that, if that check bounces or the client turns out to have otherwise screwed them over (especially if they go through strictly-figurative Hell and/or possibly-literal high water to both take out their target and convince Moxxie to stop being so damned moral), then I could see them giving the hypothetical petty idiot a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown in retaliation.

Edited by TrashJack on Feb 15th 2024 at 11:08:36 AM

I'm here listening to this hypothetical episode, and it's a shame that the show doesn't want to focus on I.M.P. doing their job. The job that was the reason Blitz even took the grimoire to keep it afloat in the first place for. A job that you don't ever really see in other media which makes it unique and interesting. And the show is treating it like it's just another average office the main characters happen to work at.

I think Stella would benefit from having some actual interactions with Octavia.

How about her talking to someone about anything else for that matter. So far all we have seen her talk to are Stolas, who she despises, even before the affair, her friends at the 'Not Divorced' party, where all we see is her continuing to shit talk Stolas, and her brother Andrephalus, who also doesn't like Stolas. Just let her talk about something other than Stolas for once!

You know, an episode where Stella tries to manipulate Octavia into siding with her would be a great episode! That way we can see them finally interact and help show that she can be a credible threat.

Edited by AFan on Feb 15th 2024 at 6:42:19 AM

It is interesting you mention that as I have been wanting something like that for a while to both cement Stella as a definitive villain and show her as being a threat that can work on her own without Striker and Andrephelus.

Like lets be real, she would 100% would try to manipulate and gaslight Octavia into turning againt Stolas just to hurt him. Have her go full hog in being a villain at this point. Social and family politics stuff is one of the things I think she would be good with. It's really weird we haven't seen anything like that yet.

Poor Octavia is young and I doubt she knows how to handle her extended family's stuff yet. Have a episode were Stella pulls her into a extended family party to learn and play politics. Let the social gaslighting and such begin.

It would give us a way too see a side of Stella we haven't seen and still make her detestable as while we know Stella likely means harm long term, Octavia wouldn't know.

Edited by Feyspeaker on Feb 15th 2024 at 8:51:21 AM

It would be interesting to see Stella be a Genius Ditz when it comes to social gatherings.

Like, "Western Energy" showed that she's rock-stupid, but she could simply be dumb in all other aspects. Having there be no one better when it comes to high society gatherings, manipulating your peers and playing the long game would, if not give her depth, at least move her closer to a villain who could actually do some harm.

As I've mentioned before, I don't want Stella to be sympathetic. Hell, she doesn't even have to be that deep. (Like I've mentioned before, I think there's a difference between just being flat and being boring, because a Flat Character can still be entertaining if the one thing they've got going for them is fun to watch) But I want her to be entertaining, and not necessarily in the "Ha ha, I'm so amused" kind of way; Just... Make me have a reaction to her. I want to Love to Hate her in the way I already feel about Crimson.

... A bit off-topic, but actually, if that's the kind of Stella you want to see, I can actually recommend the fics written by the user Afishtocrat on Archive of Our Own, because that's how they do it - Stella is still rather despicable and not somebody to root for, but she's shown to be able to show Octavia a thing or two when it comes to the game of aristocracy, and she actually gives a shit about her daughter despite mostly just using her to get a leg up on Stolas.

Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Feb 15th 2024 at 8:12:52 PM

Oooh, speaking of Stella in Ao3 fanfics, She appears in The Silverscale Arena (of which I'm one of the few people who is adding stuff to its page) in episodes 16, 31, and Implosion: Time Stops for Nobody. And in it while she's still a terrible person, she gets opportunities to bounce off against other people in them, making her entertaining to read. For examples, in Episode 16 she watches two characters get eaten by Vorealiens, and she thinks they had it coming since they weren't trillionaires. And in Imp-losion, she's the only one who actually likes Squidward's clarinet playing...specifically because it sounds like a dying animal.