Duplicate tropes discussion thread

The distinction between the Hollywood X and Artistic Licence X tropes is that the former cover typical trends, while the latter is just a list of every error of fact.

Are the "typical trends" clearly enough defined so that viewers know where to place their examples?

I've been meaning to bring this up to TRS for a while. These two are basically doing the same thing with different words.

We may need to discuss Spooky Kids Media versus Defanged Horrors. From what I can tell, Spooky Kids Media is "scary stuff made cute and adorable and appropriate for even little kids/families" and Defanged Horrors is "scary stuff that's appropriate for children to consume". I mistook Spooky Kids Media as a sort of index for Defanged Horrors-type media, but looks like some of the things listed before I added entries aren't a great fit, I wouldn't say something like Goosebumps isn't cute or sweet most of the time and is inappropriate for kids 7 and under (which this trope seems to include). The Ghostbusters movies I would say don't fit either. And there's a lot of crossover with Defanged Horrors.

At first, I was just going to clean the page, but do you think either one needs a rename to make it more clear? Is Spooky Kids Media distinct enough to stand on its own? I do think something like a Spooky Kids Media-trope exists, it probably just needs to the renamed to make it clearer, like Spooky Cute, Spooky Cute Aesthetic, Gentle Spookiness, just spitballing.

Perhaps it could be called Spooky Yet Soft.

nm

Edited by eroock on Feb 7th 2024 at 8:05:25 PM

How are Stern Teacher and Mentor in Sour Armor any different?

I think a Stern Teacher, like other teacher tropes, is a teacher in a traditional school environment teaching a whole class of students, while a Mentor in Sour Armor, like other mentor tropes is often a one-on-one or more informal relationship and teaching something other than academic topics.

Stern is not the same as sour, and not all teachers are The Mentor.

Picking up from my Spooky Kids Media vs Defanged Horrors...wouldn't it make more sense for the tropes to switch names? Just had a thought.

What's the difference between the two? Both sounds like "horror toned down so it's viewable by kids".

I argued elsewhere that the difference is that Defanged Horrors is for horror being toned down for a younger demographic, while Spooky Kids Media is more so for works aimed towards a younger demographic that focus on “spooky” subject matter. Such works tend to have some creepy elements but are lighthearted overall, such as Ruby Gloom. (Which does have a NF subpage, albeit of questionable quality.)

There’s definitely some confusion regarding definitions, however. Spooky Kids Media says that works under it are “family-friendly and, for the most part, still generally sweet and happy in their overall tone just like their non-spooky counterparts”. But under such a definition, I wouldn’t include something like Goosebumps, which has scaring as its primary purpose.

Personally, I’d rework Spooky Kids Media, making it more on works that focus on “spooky” subject matter but largely don’t focus on horror. The “kids” part could be cut to widen the scope a bit.

Could use a rename. There are things that fit that description (just found this Nick Jr. promo), the way it is now, it seems like it's an index for children's horror media.

So I know the difference between Strawman Has a Point and Informed Wrongness in theory. But I've seen a lot of Strawman Has a Point examples for characters who are more dimensional than just a Straw Character, including main characters. I'm not sure if this is misuse, but if it's not, is there any reasonable distinction between the two? Is the former more for when a so-called "correct" character's fault is specifically pointed out?

^ Without a deep dive into how the tropes are being used, I would say they are interchangeable.

If I had to guess, Informed Wrongness is when a normally sympathetic character supposedly "makes the wrong decision", but under the circumstances it makes sense why they made said decision (being Locked Out of the Loop, having their privacy invaded, etc), while Strawman Has a Point is when an unsympathetic character is meant to be in the wrong when they make this one point (solely because they're unsympathetic), but it's less arguable than the narrative lets on. But honestly...they both sound like versions of Moral Myopia being applied in the opposite direction (hence them being YMMV) in the same way, so either there's a Missing Supertrope or SHAP is just The Same, but More.

Incidentally, I find it weird that SHAP is listed as an Audience Reaction, despite it being based on something objectively part of the narrative—the strawman's point being contrasted with the point of the hero(es), with the subjective part being which one outweighs the other. I was genuinely surprised when I found out it wasn't listed among the other uncategorized tropes on YMMV.Home Page.

Oh yeah I know it's subjective, I'm just wondering why it's an AR, especially since Informed Wrongness isn't. YMMV tropes that aren't AR have objective meaning in the story (like Moral Event Horizon), but subjective examples, since people won't always agree on when the trope is in use.

Edited by Coachpill on Feb 20th 2024 at 12:09:28 PM

SHAP is subjective because it's about audience members disagreeing with the framing of the narrative as you're not supposed to agree with the point, as opposed to something like Jerkass Has a Point, which is deliberate in-universe.

What's the difference between Forced Perspective and Depth Deception?

Forced Perspective is general, Forced Perspective is when that also creates a confusion for a character or is invoked in some way. I suppose they could be merged.

Why do we have both FanWorks.Crossovers and Crossover.Fan Works?

Crossover.Fan Works is for the Crossover trope happening in Fan Works, while FanWorks.Crossovers is for Fan Works that are crossovers.

So do we care more about tropes or work genres? Because I agree that there should only be one.

I'd say we keep Crossover.Fan Works, since that's the broader one, unless we want to restrict that to "In-universe discussion of crossovers of Show Within a Show."

Edited by Malady on Feb 27th 2024 at 2:47:26 AM

Difference between Unreliable Illustrator and Canon Illustrations?

It seems Unreliable Illustrator is for any medium with visual art, while Canon Illustrations is only for literature, and so they overlap in the section:

I'd suggest turning that into a subpage: UnreliableIllustrator.Literature, but that's just me.

Keystone Army and Decapitated Army? Particularly when mooks die as their boss dies. Each trope description says it's covered by the other trope.

Edited by eroock on Feb 29th 2024 at 10:49:14 PM

Keystone Army: army quickly loses after losing a specific person or object. Decapitated Army: that being the leader.

Edited by Amonimus on Feb 29th 2024 at 11:56:01 PM