Which character titles to use?

ATT link here.

This is an argument that started over which way to refer to a character in Fate/Grand Order that was headed off before it become an edit war by moving to ATT. It was then moved from ATT as the discussion grew overly long and circular. A link to the ensuing discussion has been linked above. The short of it is as follows:

1. In this game's localization, the character uses the name Altria. The localization company wanted to use Artoria, but were overruled.
2. In the previous localized game, Fate/Extella, the character uses the name Artoria.
3. The company that made the game originally has used Altria and Artoria before in roughly equal amounts for upwards of a decade with no consistency. They appear to be trying to stick with Altria at the moment.
4. The fandom is used to the name Artoria, which has been the commonly accepted name since perhaps as far back as her initial appearance in 2008 when Fate/stay night was first translated into English.
5. The character's name is derived from the Roman name Artorius because she's supposed to be a genderflip of King Arthur.

This is the discussion so far as I'm aware of it. The two sides of the argument are that one side believes that we should go with the more recently used localization name, Altria. They admit the name doesn't make a lot of sense, but state that as the name used in the game itself that it's more proper to use as it lines up with general wiki policy. The other side believes that the other name, Artoria, should be used instead based on the also recently localized game (Fate/Extella, January 2017) and because it is much more commonly used by the fandom as a whole.

Please let me know if I have misrepresented either argument. I will attempt to make corrections if it turns out that I have omitted anything or allowed my bias to creep into this post.

I'd say go with Artoria, simply because most people who would play Grand Order know her by that name, and the Altria name has caused a LOT of backlash on several sites, which could potentially spill over to here.

And someone brought it up: Extella is the newest game technically, and uses Artoria in the English version. Grand Order was just localized afterwards.

So I'd put it as a note that, while the English localization uses Altria, we'll be using Artoria form simplicity's sake because that's what her name has been localized to in every other localization.

Side note:

That's incorrect. The dub of all of the anime^note original stay night, Zero and Unlimited Blade Works have exclusively used Artoria. The only use of Altria is on the Japanese web pages for the Fate series. That's it. Grand Order is the first and (likely) only time Altria has been used for the English localization.

edited 8th Jul '17 10:20:09 AM by BlackSunNocturne

I feel like Artoria should be used.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

When I say roughly equal amounts, I'm not referring to localizations but the actual source material for when they write her name in English. Data books and stuff that don't get translated but still have her name written in English use 'Artoria' and 'Altria' with no real consistency. Stuff that gets localized pretty much always goes with Artoria.

And this is why this is an issue. Type-MOON has no consistency with her name, which makes us tear our hair out like mad.

I just KNOW the next localization/dub will have her name be Artoria.

Artoria/Arturia, if only because Altria makes... like no sense at all, at least to me.

I wish I could provide a more detailed explanation, but Altria just rubs me the wrong way; somebody said it's a portmanteau name for Saber Alter from the way it sounds.

grah

That's the other issue: I've heard people use Altria as a Fan Nickname for Saber Alter a lot more than using it to refer to Artoria.

If it's been used for more adaptations than Altria then it's the one to go with. Simple as that I feel.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

All names are recognizable. I think the namebox should use Altria as it's the current official English name, but the trope examples don't really need perfect consistency.

When speaking about a specific work, the localization used in that work is the correct one. So, within FGO, it is Altria. When speaking about a work where Artoria was used, that is the correct name to use.

The only valid question is what to use when speaking about the franchise as a whole. And for that, we have a simple rule - most recent official localization wins.

For character pages, making sure both names are noted is sensible.

If the parent company now wants the name to officially be Altria, then that's what we should use. Going with what random fans want is a path to madness; we've made that mistake in the past. That's why we have the policies we do.

If this were a Fate site, we might make a different decision, but it's not, and we need a consistent set of rules which work everywhere. It's not about the fans—we need examples to work for non fans as well. (That's why we have rules against the ZCE, for example.) And we need simple rules which can be applied everywhere, because we cover too many different works (and kinds of works) to have special exceptions for specific works.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

If I maythrow in my two cents. I keep getting Alteria mixed up with that other name of this version of Attilla.

Fate Grand Order players will know me as Ryusei-Go.

I've already made it clear which name I like more. Altria. But at the same time, I like Artoria as well. Whichever one is used, I don't really mind. However, the thing is Type-Moon is the one that's pushing for Altria to begin with. Regardless of fan preference, policy is that we use information from the official source isn't it? And what is the official source of FGO pages here? Well FGO itself of course.

In fact, if memory serves right, Extella has been the only instance where Saber's name is spelled as Artoria in a localized main entry. The original Visual Novel itself was never translated officially, and I don't think the Light Novels of Fate/Zero were officially translated either as far as I remember.

Subs and Dubs aren't really valid sources either since the former is only subbing what is spoken which might result in inaccuracies and while the latter as something spoken can change depending on dubbing company. Actual spelling is what we should be looking for. In which case, both Artoria and Altria have been used roughly equally at this point. At least three times for each last I checked.

However, as of FGO, Type-Moon has been pushing for the Altria spelling of her name. The game, materials related to it, and as well as various merchandise use it. As such, regardless of how it was spelled in the past, it's apparent now that Type-Moon has basically made a decision on the matter.

There's a lot more to it than 'the fans don't like it,' but I guess the pink post has spoken. For my last word on the matter I'm just going to say it seems significantly more confusing to use a name that nobody is familiar with and that the rest of the site doesn't use. The stories are very interconnected, so using different names for the same character is just weird. To me it seems more consistent for the website as a whole to use the same name everywhere when referring to the same thing.

But fine, Altria it is.

You should mention it even if it doesn't change anything.

The localizers themselves wanted to use Artoria, but were told to use Altria.

Also Altria is the name of an actual Goddess.

edited 8th Jul '17 3:47:24 PM by OmegaRadiance

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

"The localizers wanted to use..." is irrelevant. They're not in charge; they're just some people hired to do a job. If I'm a housepainter, and I'm hired to paint a house, my color preferences are irrelevant—I paint the house the color the client wants.

Using different names for the same character does seem confusing—but that's what the company which created the character wants to do, and it's not our job to disagree. It's their character, so it's their choice.

(And if they're consistent about it going forward, I suspect it'll stop being confusing before long. In five years time, I doubt if most people will remember the old name.)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

I highly doubt people are just going to forget about Artoria if Altria is used from hereon out.

Artoria is the name used in all the anime (which are leagues larger than Grand Order ever will be) as well as being the name used in the other Fate series games. Not to mention the fact that Artoria is used in every Japanese release.

If this were a more minor series I might agree, but the Fate series is one of the largest in the industry, with Artoria being absolutely everywhere.

Within the context of Grand Order I still disagree with using Altria on the wiki, especially since the Japanese version used Artoria and that's her name far more commonly, but it's reasonable enough since that's how her name was defined this time around and it's wiki policy.

edited 8th Jul '17 8:51:59 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

No, people aren't going to forget about the old name. This is a fairly minor installment in the franchise as a whole. It's just a cash grab phone game with a poor localization that translates the same name in two different ways on the same page. Fans will just keep using Artoria like they've always done since it's her name.

I suppose it wasn't really my last word on the matter before, huh. That statement just kind of annoyed me though and I had to respond.

edited 8th Jul '17 8:52:00 PM by Arha

The English version is doing better than expected from what I've heard and if it catches on it wouldn't be surprising to see it more popular than the amines just like in Japan.

x3 The guys localizing are players of Fate/Grand Order as well. One even complain about not getting Merlin last year in the Japanese version.

Plus it doesn't help that even in Japan they've used names inconsistently in English for FGO. Mash was literally Matthew in English during a valentines event and changed next year to Mash/u. Don't remember which.

But the Mods words are still right and we should stick to wiki policy.

edited 8th Jul '17 8:55:36 PM by OmegaRadiance

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Considering the amount of effort and success with the game, I doubt minor is a accurate description.

That honestly speaks more to the size of the Fate franchise than anything else.

Also it's only effort if you use the term very loosely. It's clear there's very little, if any, proofreading or double checking when you look at the dialogue.

But that's besides the point. Wiki policy is wiki policy, even if I disagree with it in this case.

edited 8th Jul '17 10:23:34 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

I was more talking about Nasu and Type-Moon's work and its place in the series. I agree the translation needs work, but beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

Yeah, while the translation does have its hiccups, such as that one instance where Atalanta is referred to as male during the France Chapter, it's not so bad that the game is unreadable as a result. It's still fairly entertaining and gives us the info we want.

-Arha - Fairly minor? FGO? Hell no.The game has honestly done more the franchise than any other entry before it. The characters, the world building, the story... one cannot simply call all that minor. Especially with how FGO has started to bleed over into other Fate entries like the Apocrypha Manga and Prisma Illya 3rei. Even Case Files features a young Olga Marie as a character at one point. Cash grab it might be, but it's influence is starting to spread everywhere these days.

-Epic Bleye - Artoria has never been used in the anime in the spelling sense. At least, I don't remember a scene where she actually spells her name out on something like paper even once (If anyone can correct this please do) And when spoken by a Japanese person, Artoria and Altria sound phonetically the same so it's near impossible to tell which is actually being used. Sub and dubs don't really count either due to what I already mentioned in my last post.

Nor has Artoria been used in Fate games much as well. The original Visual Novel was never officially translated and I don't think other games aside from Extella even mentions her real name to begin with either(Again, if anyone can correct this please do) In fact, Fate/Extella is honestly the only instance I've seen her name being spelled that way from any Fate game and that was the English version mind you. The Japanese version uses Altria as her name.

And then there's FGO. The Japanese version undeniably uses Altria as well. Why? Because merchandise and materials related to the game have been using the spelling whenever her name is spelled in English. And need one be reminded of the fact that the company itself pushed for said spelling in the localization?

edited 9th Jul '17 4:25:22 AM by 00Altair

Neither is "actually being used". Her official name in Japan has always been アルトリア・ペンドラゴン (which sounds sort of like "Adutodia Pendodagon" spoken in a Spanish accent).

A Japanese reader doesn't mentally convert アルトリア into "actually Altria/Artoria" to understand who's being talked about. Rather, they convert both Altria and Artoria into "actually アルトリア.

In Japanese katakana there are many ways a word could be romanized but only one way it can be pronounced, while in English it's the other way around. In the movie of The Lord of the Rings some characters pronounce the villain's name as "Sew-ron" and others as "Soar-on", and keeping it consistent isn't seen as important. Likewise, アルトリア sometimes being romanized as Artoria and sometimes as Altria would not be seen as a big deal in Japanese, since both are understood to be the same name.

edited 9th Jul '17 3:05:05 PM by Prime32