That One Boss and That One Level cleanup.

I disagree with having any Dark Souls entries here. Every boss is hard in those games, intentionally so, and that disqualifies them from being this trope.

It is Nintendo Hard and some bosses are Goddamned Boss and that is about it.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:22:37 PM by Memers

I disagree with the idea Dark Souls can't have a That One Boss. A boss can be absurdely hard even by those standards. In the souls games, it's often when you add a good layer of fake difficulty on top of the already existing challenge. Just bevause everything is hard doesn't mean there aren't various shades of hard, with some being significantly darker.

to quote the description of Goddamned Boss : "These bosses are not particularly difficult or dangerous, but an absolute pain in the ass to fight (one of the proposed titles for this trope was "Pain In The Boss", for this reason). Sure, your character may be able to last all day against this boss's attacks, but your patience certainly cannot. Frustration leading to mistakes is the most common way that players end up getting killed by these bosses."

That Doesn't efficiently describes ornstein and smough. That doesn't describe the Fume Knight. this could tangentially describe part of the problem with the Bed Of Chaos, but it would miss most of the point.

Just because the game is hard doesn't mean the dev team can't overlook one boss or two and make it much harder than it is supposed to be, it only means it must be judged by taking that into account. The Bed of chaos and the capara demon are the two who stands out the most : those two clearly weren't playtested thoroughly and well thought out.

edit : Let's use numbers, shall we ? Difficulty is not 0 or 1. it's more like for 0 to 100. For a game where the average boss is around, say, 40, a boss to 60 will be That One Boss. Just because the souls series put the average to, say, 70, doesn't mean that boss at 95 here isn't That One Boss.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:39:01 PM by Yumil

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

We need to add a 'comparatively' to Goddamned Boss then, seriously every single boss in Dark Souls is hard enough to be That One Boss to someone and that disqualifies it from being an example of it ever, same for Shin Megami Tensei games with 22+ That One Boss entries.

Every boss is at least a 10 in difficulty, an 11 is not special.

If anything these games could have an inverted 'Surprisingly Easy Boss For Such A Hard Game' trope instead.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:45:00 PM by Memers

isn't that Breather Boss ? It would serve a that purpose in this context at least.

Also, again, I must disagree, Not every Dark Souls boss is That One Boss compared to the intended difficulty of the game. The taurus demon isn't That One Boss. Seath isn't That One Boss. Nito isn't That One Boss. Artorias isn't That One Boss.

Just because some people do find them hard do not means the trope has no value in the souls series, it only means it must be put under more scrutiny. But most of the souls veterans, who played the games long enough to stop finding them especially hard can stil agree that some bosses are hard, and those bosses deserve that trope

That shin megami tensei entry need to be trimmed, if there's 22 bosses in it. If one or two stands out of the lot even by those standards, they can stay.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:51:39 PM by Yumil

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

I also disagree with saying Atlus and From Soft games can't have examples. "Every boss is hard to someone, so no one can count", isn't any different from me saying "Every boss could be easy for someone, so no one's worth listing." last page. All that needs to matter is that enough players find a bosses difficulty enough to stand out.

edited 13th Jul '17 12:59:52 PM by VeryMelon

This is what I get from going through the That One Boss Mega Man page. I'm pretty sure there still needs a page from the series, and I suspect that we might want to change the page picture (which isn't hard; the Yellow Devil MK 1's initial attack would be a fine picture). We also need to explicitly say that Mega Man boss must remain that one boss even when using Robot Master Weapons; there's too much Self-Imposed Challenge on the page.

Mega Man 1: Keep: Yellow Devil Drop: Everybody else, although if somebody wants to argue for a single robot master I could be convinced.

Mega Man 2: Keep: Quick Man, Buebeam Trap Drop: Wood Man, Mecha Dragon, Wily Machine 2 Weird Case: Air Man is a discussion about how he's a Memetic Badass who isn't That One Boss but has the reputation of one. I'd normally say cut, but "I can't defeat Airman" is the page quote

Mega Man 3: Keep: Doc Quickman Drop: Doc Wood/Air/Heat/Flash, Yellow Devil Mark 2 (easier than Yellow Devil Mark 1) Not Sure: Shadow Man is tough, but I'm not sure he's worse than Needle Man or Gemini Man, even if Top Spin is an awkward weakness to use on him.

Mega Man 4: Keep: Ring Man Drop: Dive Man, Wily Machine 4 (the Drill Bomb thing makes him a puzzle boss, not that one boss)

Mega Man 5: Drop: Gravity Man Not Sure: I don't think either Dark Man counts, but I could be convinced

Mega Man 6: Drop: Mechazaurus (effectively another Puzzle Boss)

Mega Man 7: Keep: Slash Man, Wily Capsule 7 (Yes, he's a final boss. He counts anyways) Drop: Bass

Mega Man 8: Drop: Astro Man (easily cheesed by Homing Sniper), Wily Fortress Boss 1 (Puzzle Boss)

Mega Man 9: Drop: All; Mega Man 9 is pretty consistently hard and I'm not sure any of them stand out. The lack of the clock-flower miniboss is pretty noticeable, when he's comparable to most of them

Mega Man 10: Drop: Strike Man, Blade Man, Enker (he's a Bonus Boss) Keep: Block Devil

Mega Man & Bass: Keep: Burner Man Drop: Tengu Man (easy with Robot Master Weapons), King Plane (yes, it's not that hard to fall to your death, but he's not so bad if you keep a rhythm and stay ahead of the game, and three of King's other forms are difficult as well) Not Sure: Dynamo Man's combination of spamming attacks and healing his health is hard, but he's still clearly easier than Burner Man.

---

(I'm less sure of the Gameboy games, but the entries seem somewhat less prone to abuse)

Mega Man: Dr. Wily's Revenge Keep: Cut Man

Mega Man II: Keep: Crash Man Drop: Air Man Not Sure: Wily Machine, but leaning against it

Mega Man III: Keep: Punk

Mega Man IV: Keep: Bright Man

Mega Man V: Not Sure: Leaning towards keep on Sunstar and drop on Uranus, but I really unsure on this

Mega Man Powered Up: Keep: Robot Master who has your weakness when playing as a Robot Master entry (although this might need to be more specific, in which case Fire Man when playing as Oil Man and Cut Man when playing as Bomb Man seem reasonable) Drop: CWU-01P as Rock/Mega (this feels Bonus Boss-y in the way that playing as a Robot Master does not), Oil Man generic entry.(yes, we get Oil Man is hard mode)

Game Gear Megaman: Keep: Napalm Man

Street Fighter X Mega Man: Keep: Vega

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MMX series

Mega Man X: Drop: Bospider, Boomer Kuwanger, Launch Octopus, and Armor Armadillo Not Sure: Leaning towards Sting Chameleon, and away from Wolf Sigma (is he hard for a Mega Man X final boss?)

Mega Man X2: Drop: Magna Centipede, Serges Keep: Violen, Zero

Mega Man X3: Drop: Volt Catfish, Godkarmachine O Inary (from what I've heard, he relatively doable) Not Sure: Leaning against Sigma for the same reason I'm leaning against MMX 1 Sigma

Mega Man Xtreme 2: Keep: Isaz and Sowilo

Mega Man X4: Drop: Storm Owl, Magma Dragoon, Sigma

Mega Man X5: Keep: Shadow Devil Drop: Skiver, Squid Adler, Gamma Sigma

Mega Man X6: Keep: Infinity Mijinion Drop: High Max, Nightmare Mother (close, but the write up focuses too much on Hard Mode for me) Not Sure: Gate (close, but so is Nightmare Mother)

Mega Man X7: Keep: Snipe Anteator Drop: Flame Hyenard (more a Goddamned Boss) and Red

Mega Man X8: Tempted to drop them all, but I'd like a second opinion

Mega Man Legends: (I'm mostly going by the write ups, so take all of this section with a grain of salt)

Legends 1: Keep: Boat Battles Drop: Karumuna Bash Trio

Legends 2: Keep: Train Battle

Mega Man Battle Network:

BN 1: Keep: Magic Man.EXE

BN 2: Keep: Quick Man.EXE

BN 3: Keep: Kingman.EXE Drop: Bubble Man.EXE, Beast Man.EXE Beta, Flame Man.EXE, Bass Not Sure: Drillman.EXE is annoying, but I'm not sure he's hard enough to qualify

BN 4: Keep: Spark Man.EXE Drop: Thunderman.EXE, Duo

BN 5: Drop: Cloud Man.EXE, Nebula Gray

BN 6: Not Sure: Circus Man.EXE sounds like a keep, but I want a second opinion

Network Transmission: Drop: Bright Man.EXE sounds like a Wake-Up Call Boss, not That One Boss Not Sure: Guts Man.EXE, Star Man.EXE (I need to do some research on this game)

Mega Man Zero:

Zero 1 Drop: Aztec Falcon (Wakeup Call Boss, not that one boss) Keep: Phantom, Rainbow Devil; even in a hard game they stand out

Zero 2: Keep: Phoenix Magnion Drop: Kuwagust Anchus

Zero 3: Keep: Cubit Foxtar

Zero 4: Keep: Kraft, Heat Genblem

Mega Man ZX: Drop: Serpent on hard mode

Mega Man ZX Advent: Drop: Boss Survival, Chronoforce on Expert Not Sure: Spindrill Miniboss seems a bit too gushing for me, Aeolus sees more like a Goddamned Boss

Megaman Starforce Keep: Gemini Spark Drop: Battle with 3 level 3 Jammers; that's not a boss, is it?

Star Force 2: Keep: Le Mu

Star Force 3: Keep: Acid Ace Drop: Two Noise Wizard fights (not really a boss), Crimson Dragon (considered easy? cut), Apollo Flame (postgame boss? that makes you a Bonus Boss cut)

Fan Games: Unlimited: Cut all, Mega Man Unlimited is just a hard game

Revolution: Keep Remir Machine

Rock Force: Keep: Death Man Drop: War Man (much easier with Crypt Cloak), Flare Man

I'll go ahead and start trimming KH- removing the undisputed cuts and trying to cut down the long-winded descriptions.

(and I'm keeping Repliku on both routes, because while Riku's deck is better suited to counter Dark Aura he also has the major downside of almost no healing, so if you do get hit you're in trouble. :P)

Haven't really played most of those, but I agree with the first three (even if I personally never really had that much of a problem with the Yellow Devil). Airman can probably stay because he has a reputation for being That One Boss, but actually isn't. The trope's about how the fandom perceives the bosses, so I think that's still relevant.

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I'm not sure I agree on that; it risks transforming the problem with the page into people arguing about whether bosses 'deserve' their reputation.

Of all the problems we have currently, is that one of them?

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No one's dropping Air Man. It is literally the quote for the page. That pretty much means he's a legendary example on one counting.

Isn't that just a meme that overhypes him on purpose?

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Yeah, I'm under the same impression.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

He's not an example of the trope, but the meme makes for a very reasonable quote. If one can find a way better quote, cool. Although I doubt that's needed.

If you actually analyze the lyrics of "I can't defeat Air Man", they say more about the player's lack of experience and skill then they say about Air Man's difficulty. (For example, the player in question doesn't even seem to have considered going after Metal Man early on.)

It actually mentions that on the page.

Honestly, I think Air Man should be totally cut. It's not the first time the quote on a trope page isn't actually describing an example of that trope (and the quote does work pretty well).

Only reason for Air Man to even be on there is to explain why it's the quote, but note it's clearly not a proper example of it. I'm not sure we need an example of him on the page as is anyway.

Isn't there a specific page that explains about Trope Namers and why they're not examples of that particular trope? Something like that for quotes that clearly aren't examples could work.

The key issue is that having the quote is fine, but if it's not an example of the actual trope, that means you need to explain why that is so it doesn't confuse people. Let's say we do cut it. People will still think it's an example due to the quote. Basically, how do we avoid that that issue?

Put a ^note like this at the end of the quote.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

I still think that while he's not an example himself, the myth about him is. It's using the trope as a story element, which is what TV Tropes is fundamentally about.

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That's not what a story element is. That's Fan Myopia and just a meme(and nothing more). This is solely an audience reaction to the game's difficulty. Story elements has to do with the actual narration. Not every trope/audience reaction/piece of trivia is actual narration. And these tropes have nothing to do with the narrative(of course, I'm sure in-universe examples exist for this trope, but that's the only time it has a narrative purpose, where characters are intentionally overplaying a boss' or levels' difficulty, whether true or not. That isn't the point of the cleanup effort, so that means that any narrative purpose clearly doesn't exist here for what we need to cleanup).

Anyway, it's a very well known meme, of course, which is why it works well enough with just a quick quote. The problem is many won't actually know this, which means it should need a far bigger explanation, but we also shouldn't be having Notes in the quote text. It's an iffy image due to some issues. I took a look through the image picking guidelines(I've never participated in that area before, which is why I didn't read them at all. I'm not going to read something till I intend to actually use the forum/etc. I completely understand if that's a bad idea to others, but let's not pick hairs here. That's why I haven't looked at it yet).

Anyway, memes are against the guidelines, full stop(it completely specifies how they are never allowed. To say the least, the only legitimate exception is if it's a trope that's a meme, where it would be appropriate). The myth is entirely a meme in every way. Thus, while I'm not against keeping it entirely, bare in mind that is a very good reason to change it to a proper example of the trope. That said, unless this gets into a giant debate, I don't see a reason to worry much about it right now. If we really need to do something, we can ask a mod to weigh in or open an Image Picking thread for it. For now, I don't think it's really top priority by any means.

Just to cite the key points;

• "If you read the example, this makes perfect sense" is not a good way to explain the trope (see the first point). The image alone should be a proper example, but more importantly, it needs to explain the trope. So far, it just lists a meme.
• Memes: They're verboten unless, of course, the page is actually about the meme in question. That alone should disqualify the image.
• Picking an image that shows something that demonstrates the trope only in context doesn't help. Be especially wary of Fan Myopia. The relevance should be obvious to anyone who has never read or watched said work. Let's be frank, this is Fan Myopia as an image. There's no way around that.
• A common sin of contributors is to let their Fan Myopia get the best of them and put in a pic that just shows off one of their favorite characters with a caption that makes a joke off of how they so totally fit the trope in their show. This will rarely, if ever, do a good job of showing off the trope. Nobody who isn't a fan of the show will get who this character is or how they fit the trope and the caption just won't be funny to them. The point of the page image is to provide a quick, sharp visual illustration of the trope for everyone. Related to the above bullet point, that's the main issue here.

Now as I said before, we don't need to change this outright, but we do have to realize that is breaking the basic guidelines too. Now as I said, this is lower priority, and I do think this is better for an Image Picking thread if there's enough worthwhile disagreement. But at the moment, we can keep it as is, but there's more than enough good reason to change it to both a non-meme and an example of the trope.

To avoid further arguments, I'll just say I think you're completely wrong.

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Well, if Air Man is not an example, any example about Air Man itself should be cut; and since this Trope isn't about memes, I figure that any "people think Air Man is That One Boss" should go to Memetic Mutation instead.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

While I appreciate the discussion about Air Man, I'd like some feedback on the rest of the Mega Man list as well, especially since some of the examples come from games I have relatively limited experience with.

Well the games only have what 10 bosses max? How can a game with 10 bosses really be allowed to have 3+ entries. 1 max IMO.

I hear Mega Man was Nintendo Hard back in the day so realistically there should only be 2 examples at the most. I think the issue with the Yellow Devil is that he's more annoying than hard (how he often switches sides and how you can only attack his head) which would go into Goddamned Boss.