Unclear Description: The Chosen One

There exists a discrepancy between The Chosen One and The Chooser of the One.

This is how the trope description for The Chosen One starts out, associating the trope with prophecy and linking it to a trope that consistently is all about destiny. However, at no point does the trope description for The Chosen One explicitly say that an example must include destiny or a prophecy, the rest of the trope description does not mention destiny or prophecy again, and several of its examples make no mention of either. However, it is not very clear that a destiny/prophecy is simply optional, either.

This is an excerpt from the description of The Chooser of the One. It clearly states that The Chosen One does not have to have a destiny or fulfill some prophecy.

The question is: Is a destiny/prophecy a requirement for both tropes, or simply an optional associated element that is sometimes present, but not always?

This could be fixed in one of two ways:

• Revise the trope descriptions of both tropes to explicitly state that a destiny/prophecy is a requirement for examples, and remove the existing examples that do not meet this requirement. This would be the most labor-intensive fix.
• Revise the trope description of The Chosen One to explicitly state that a destiny/prophecy is an optional factor, and that an example does not have to require one if it meets all of the other qualifications for the trope. This would be the least labor-intensive fix.

If a trope is defined wrong on another page, the simple solution is to fix it to the proper definition. That's what we do with every other time a trope is defined wrong on a different page.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

"The One" is either defined as

• The Hero who is singled out by someone.
• A character mentioned in prophesy.

Depending on which trope you read, you get a different answer. It isn't like "Chosen by the Gods" doesn't count as a trope, it just only fits the first definition, not the second. By the same token, if there's no The Chooser of the One, then the first definition is effectively The Hero, which has too many examples to be useful.

I'm inclined to say that The Chosen One should be "mentioned in prophesy" and The Chooser of the One should be split into "character who interprets prophesy to find The Chosen One" and "character with the power to imbue another with powers". Possibly a third trope where "nonsupernatural character represents a supernatural character".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Hmm. I'm not seeing the difference you are describing. The Chosen One is chosen. That is all. By fate, or the village chief, or the fact that everyone else was too young or too old, or by prophecy, makes no difference.

Now, the village chief from above might be the Chooser of the One. Why he made his choice is immaterial. The One got chosen. But we can have chosen without having a choosing character. All we need is a choosing dynamic.

edited 4th Jan '16 9:33:59 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

What counts as a choosing dynamic? That's so undefined, I challenge you to find an example of The Hero that is not the recipient of some sort of "choosing dynamic". Any work troped by this site, I'll go out and grab, and then put in three times The Hero of the work was " chosen".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So all heroes are chosen. Um. Yup. What's the issue? Some are even heroically self-chosen.

edited 4th Jan '16 10:22:01 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

How about Buffy The Vampire Slayer? There isn't a person who chooses Slayers. There isn't even a real mechanism. They just sort of pop up when the previous one dies after a whole slew of candidates. Why any girl is picked over any other or who or what does the picking is never defined. It just sort of happens.

edited 5th Jan '16 2:20:57 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Aside from making The Chosen One a Duplicate Trope to The Hero; if we were to list every single example of the trope, the pages would go on forever.

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1. The first was Chosen by the village elders,
2. A prophesy grew to predict what a Slayer is,
3. A second prophesy predicted one Slayer who would create "Twilight".

That was an easy one; I didn't even need to watch season 1 to find three choosing dynamics.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The distinction between a Chosen One and any other hero is the "One" part, then. That is, they are presented in the story as being the sole solution to the Big Dilemma, whatever it might be.

A non-One could just be conveniently near the problem, or not the only person dealing with it heroically — firefighters on two frontiers of an inferno, for example — both heroes, but not alone.

We see teams of heroes in comic books very regularly. All of them were chosen in some way.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

The Chosen Many is defined as being more than "one" chosen one. It's for the cases where there's two or three firefighters instead of just one.

The Chosen One's potential definition of "beneficent of prophesy" doesn't require them to be the only beneficiary, just a beneficiary.

edited 5th Jan '16 9:44:50 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

They aren't always chosen by prophecy though. Sometimes they grasp the wrong magical artefact and are thrust by chance into being the only one who can defeat the bad guys because they're the only one who can use the thing.

Think the Ancient Gene in Atlantis. There's no prophecy, but the people with the gene are still The Chosen Many because they can do the thing that the other people can't.

edited 5th Jan '16 9:54:54 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Sounds like the proposal to remove the prophecy burden from the Chooser Of The One does no harm.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Correct, The Hero is not always chosen by prophesy.

I don't get your point. I don't see how "any choosing dynamic" doesn't make The Chosen One a duplicate of The Hero. There's no distinction left if there isn't a way to point to The Hero and say "this character isn't The Chosen One" or a way to point to The Chosen One and say "this character isn't The Hero" without Playing with a Trope.

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The Chooser of the One doesn't currently have the prophesy requirement; it explicitly allows for non-prophesy Chosen Ones. That trope will survive regardless of the decision with this trope because not all Heroes have a chooser. It is just an easy showcase of the broad use The Chosen One has experienced.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

To me, the choosing part of The Chosen One requires some kind of supernatural element. I'd the village chief just picks someone, that's just the leader picking an errand boy.

But someone selected by the gods, or specifically named or described in prophecy, that's a capital C Chosen One.

Well, the nature of Fate, for those who choose to believe in such predetermination, would be that all heroes are chosen by Fate. So, you are going have to explicitly constrain the Chosen Ones to those selected supernaturally.

I dunno. What is the harm this small ambiguity is causing? If someone were to cite a hero not chosen by prophecy as being The Chosen One, would it make any difference?

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Not all heroes are chosen, we do have The Unchosen One trope after all. The difference between The Chosen One and The Hero is that the chosen one fulfills some specific requirement needed to resolve the conflict that is either bestowed by destiny or recognized by The Chooser of the One, that they are "special". I believe I have said this several times before. In other words, being chosen is only half the trope, the other half being why they are chosen.

You want an example? John McClane. Nobody chooses him. He just happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. There is nothing special about him. Theoretically anybody who knew how to work a gun and was brave enough to take on the Big Bad and smart enough to survive could have done what he did. Indiana Jones is another example; nothing special about him, and he does not even resolve the conflict, God does that for him.

edited 6th Jan '16 5:57:50 PM by shiro_okami

Another example of The Hero who is not The Chosen One: Katniss Everdeen of The Hunger Games. Any choosing she'd been a part of was a random lottery, and when she participates it's of her own volition. She's, at most, The Unchosen One, though there's really nothing for her to be Unchosen from.

edited 6th Jan '16 5:58:04 PM by sgamer82

I can tell this is one of those distinctions where there is just always going to be two sides. :)

As long as you guys know that there is a side that doesn't see this as big deal, not calling for work to be expended because it is not really fixing anything, then I'll tip my hat and head for the door.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

I confess I'm I don't follow your meaning there.

Only applies to the first book, and Peeta is at least as much The Hero in that book. He was chosen by "fate" or "luck", and in the next two books, everyone acts like if Katniss agrees with their side, they will win the war. The President forces Katniss to compete again by rigging the lottery to choose her again.

Also, Anti-Hero does not count as The Hero. Indy and John are both anti-heroes and thus cannot count as The Hero.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

As I mentioned myself, to me Chosen One requires more than lottery, or popular opinion. It requires The Hero be The Hero due to an explicit choice by an acknowledged higher power, be they gods, fate, or what have you. That doesn't apply anywhere in The Hunger Games, as no higher power is expressly at work.

edit: I'm reminded of a question I asked on an earlier thread.

Would it still be a case of Chosen One if it's a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of some kind? In other words, is it still The Chosen One if the primary reason the hero is fighting at all is because the villain seeks to kill him and the primary reason the villain does that is due to a prophecy that describes the hero? (ex. Harry Potter, where there only reason Harry is "The Chosen One" is because Voldemort was acting on the words of a Seer)

edited 6th Jan '16 7:13:17 PM by sgamer82

I never answered that question because it sounds like asking "is a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy still count as a prophesy?", and there's an underlying assumptions that I simply cannot debate because I do not understand it.

The Chosen One kinda agrees with this, The Chooser of the One does not agree. In The Chooser of the One, Katniss can be The Chosen One because the Capital has chosen her to represent District 12.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I don't think it matter why the Chosen one is the Chosen one. The important part is that the work treats the character as the Chosen One. If the work treats the character as the Chosen One because she randomly stumbled upon the One Mismatched Sock of Extraordinary Rock Skipping, then she is the Chosen One, no matter how arbitrary it is if you put any kind of logic to it.

Check out my fanfiction!

Well our focus here is The Chosen One, though I typically took The Chooser of the One to be the representative of the higher power in some form. Though I haven't studied that trope thoroughly so I could be mistaken.

As for the Self Fulfilling Prophecy bit, my question basically is asking if it still counts as a Chosen One if the only reason the prophecy comes true to begin with is the villain's attempts to prevent it.

That could work if it's a case where the weapon can choose its wielder.

edited 6th Jan '16 7:35:52 PM by sgamer82

Oh, come on! John Mc Clane is actually on The Hero page as an example. I will also add Frodo and Sam from LOTR.

How a prophecy comes true is irrelevant. Harry counts as The Chosen One.

Katniss is not The Chosen Many in the first book but Peeta is (only the tributes chosen by lottery would count as The Chosen Many, not the volunteers), but both are in the second (all tributes in the Quarter Quell are The Chosen Many). In the first instance, they are chosen by fate/luck, and in the second by The Chooser of the One (Snow) and special requirement (being a former survivor). And Peeta was never The Hero. If anything, he is The Load.

This is also important.

edited 6th Jan '16 8:39:14 PM by shiro_okami