Destiny and the Chosen One

Arising from a debate in YKTTW, is Because Destiny Says So a required part of The Chosen One?

That's how it's written, yes.

I find that it also implies that a character can be The Chosen One because of some In-Universe cultural ideas, which don't necessarily involve destiny from a narrative point of view.

On the other hand, I suppose you could argue that it's still about a perceived destiny by the characters, even if the narrative as a whole doesn't agree with that.

On the third hand, those characters tend to end up in that role anyway, so the point is probably moot.

I don't think I understand "a perceived destiny by the characters, even if the narrative as a whole doesn't agree with that."

An example of that would be if the work as a whole subscribes to the idea that destiny is what we make ourselves, and free will is the driving force as opposed to some cosmic force that mandates certain events because destiny says so, but despite that characters in the work still believe in destiny, and act as if that's what's happening. That is, the work says things happen because the characters make them happen, but the characters believe it's because of destiny.

I don't think the question of determination is relevant to if there's a "future-knowledge" of one person having great importance. I mean, it's always an interesting case study, but the question wasn't about "Can there be The Chosen One in a self-deterministic universe?"

Prophesy doesn't have to be right, it just has to exist. That's the point of Screw Destiny. The question is if The Chosen One can exist without the "future-knowledge" portion. I can see using a Reluctant Hero to subvert Because Destiny Says So, but that's doesn't seem to remove the requirement from The Chosen One, it just plays with the idea.

edited 18th Dec '15 8:45:50 AM by crazysamaritan

That's what I said.

Okay, I was having trouble parsing your original post.

The trope does not literally say the words that The Chosen One must fulfill a prophecy. At the most, it only implies that prophecy and destiny have to be involved, as opposed to being optional. And destiny itself is only mentioned once in the trope description proper. Additionally, if The Chosen One is always chosen by destiny, then where does The Chooser of the One fit in, especially since its trope description says that destiny is not a requirement for choosing the one? The two trope descriptions contradict each other.

edited 19th Dec '15 5:24:42 PM by shiro_okami

My 2ct:

• Because Destiny Say So and/or The Chosen One involves a prophecy that specifically says who is the one. Like "Only Link could defeat Ganon".
• In The Chooser of the One, the prophecy involved does not call the main player by name, only by description, and then the chooser will find that one based on the description. This can also appear in Only the Chosen May Wield. This kind of prophecy is easier to twist than the one above.

Tl;dr different kind of prophecies.

But it's more than just that.

This is straight from the description of The Chooser of the One. It straight up says that an example does not have to involve any kind of prophecy at all.

Yes, The Chooser of the One apparently treats The Chosen One as The Hero. I think that means it needs to visit TRS.

I'd like to build more than five opinions here, so I'm sending a PM to tropers in Ask The Tropers to share their opinions on what The Chosen One is meant to be, and if the definition is sufficiently clear.

TRS is closed until January, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss this and get a good argument for when TRS is opened.

~SnowHesher, ~SatoshiBakura, ~emeriin, ~Larkmarn, and ~sgamer82 — Do you mind checking out the tropes and sharing opinions? I know Anakin is supposed to be one, but the new movie has tropers calling Rey a Chosen One, too.

It's been a while since I've seen the prequels, but didn't Anakin have a prophecy about him? Rey doesn't, at least not yet.

Anakin was definitely The Chosen One. Qui-Gon did say so. Anakin was prophesised to bring balance to the force. Which he did in his own way .

The circumstances of how destiny plays in this are confusing. Considering the effort Qui-Gon puts in get Anakin trained, I would say that in order for the prophecy to be achieved, Anakin must be guided to that direction. Also considering the doubts of the rest of the Jedi Council, it seems that not all prophesies would come true.

There are different interpretations on Rey being The Chosen One. On one hand, you could say that the force chose her to be a Jedi and defeat the First Order. The lightsaber definitely called out to her when she touched it. On the other hand, you could say that since there was nothing prophesied, she just happened to be there in the conflict.

edited 22nd Dec '15 3:25:16 PM by SatoshiBakura

I'll be seeing TFA later tonight so I can weigh in on that idea later.

My own definition of The Chosen One, which seems mostly in line with the first part of the description, is a character who is Chosen or otherwise mandated by some higher power in the story. If there's The Chooser of The One, he's a representative of that higher power.

Skimming the literature section, I wouldn't consider Katniss Everdeen seen a Chosen One, A Song Of Ice And Fire definitely has a Chosen One, at the very least.

For Star Wars, I would say we have a Chosen One, be it Anakin, Luke, or Rey, as it's said the one is Chosen by the Force.

Katniss definitely isn't a Chosen One; her presence is (mostly) random — if anything, she's The Unchosen One because she volunteered to take her sister's place, although that trope also requires the idea of a Chosen One as a prerequisite. But there is nothing special about her from the point of view of the other characters until she wins.

edited 22nd Dec '15 4:05:32 PM by Fighteer

I think Chosen By The Gods should be a Sister Trope, where someone is explicitly imbued to be a divine representative. This may have some overlap, but Daughter Of The Lioness is a great example for the overlap not being exactly the same thing.

(For the uninitiated, a prophesy talks about several Chosen Ones, but only Aly is explicitly chosen by a god, and she has to maintain a ruse of being chosen by a different god than the one who actually chose her.)

I'm now curious about the work you mention. Also in most Chosen One cases with visions and prophecies, aren't they frequently sent by the higher power?

Actually, since gods are frequently just as vulnerable to destiny, maybe should say "mandated by the highest known power." But that's probably just me being semantic.

edited 22nd Dec '15 4:58:37 PM by sgamer82

Many vision/prophesies do come from the divine, but foreknowledge of future events is not always the purview of the highest power. In the aforementioned storyline, the prophesy is about a Divine Conflict being waged on mortal lands. In another story by the same author, there is a divine but explicitly not deity who can see the future, and has a fuzzy view of the "present". They choose another character to stop an evil mage. But they have very little help to offer her, and anyone who goes inside is able to receive visions. The author was explicitly making a character with no supernatural powers for that storyline. "Protector of the Small" would be both tropes, but does not gain any powers for their destiny (her destiny isn't even "will defeat", it is "will meet"). So none of the " good stuff" like most Chosen One characters, just lots of hand-wringing until it happens.

Then you've got the Tolkein version, where the destiny is all Word of God, with no explicit divine influence present whatsoever. (Frodo is The Chosen One by Word of God, and Sméagol "may yet have some purpose" by Gandalf's words).

We need to determine which examples are played straight and which are playing with the trope. Not all prophetic system (including how the chosen one get chosen) are the same.

I think that was one reason for my Higher Power qualifier. I'd say the straightest examples of the trope are where a Chosen One is actively Chosen vs simply showing up in a prophecy. It can be chosen by the above mentioned higher power, the legendary weapon may actively choose its wielder, etc.

The key to me, is the Chosen One is selected for his or her duty, and not by just any ol' random schmuck.

Hero of Prophecy would be the next step down, especially if it names or describes its Chosen quite explicitly as opposed to coming off as a vague description our hero just happens to meet.

Would it still be a case of Chosen One if it's a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of some kind? In other words, is it still The Chosen One if the primary reason the hero is fighting at all is because the villain seeks to kill him and the primary reason the villain does that is due to a prophecy that describes the hero? (ex. Harry Potter, where there only reason Harry is "The Chosen One" is because Voldemort was acting on the words of a Seer)

edited 25th Dec '15 6:51:30 AM by sgamer82

TRS opened.