How do you go depressingly dark without alienating readers?

In the past i've written some dark stuff and depressive stuff... mostly to self express myself. But I've sort of toned it down due to feedback that I was overdoing it.

For me reader experience is important but I do want to touch certain dark themes, without making readers feel uncomfortable. What do you think it's the key?

edited 15th Nov '15 7:28:50 AM by RPGLegend

The key is to know when dark becomes too dark, and stop before then. Because no matter how dark you want to go, no matter how dark you do try to go, there's always a threshold beyond which it's not just dark but hopeless, unrealistically so even for a world that is dark and without hope both isn't really an interesting place nor one that can even exist because people would simply give up and there's no story then.

Trouble is, there's no clearly-defined threshold; it's entirely subjective. Something that's too dark for one reader may be acceptable to another — and might not go far enough for somebody who's really into that sort of thing.

Go as depressingly dark as you feel, or as you want. Be positively hadopelagic.

Just don't alienate readers while you do it.

Alienation has nothing to do with darkness. Look see?

edited 15th Nov '15 9:29:13 AM by Faemonic

This is a question I struggle with myself, writing a series with a lot of Cerebus Syndrome coming soon. The best answer I can come up with is to remember that everything should contribute to the plot.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone have a rule that every plot point should be able to be connected by "and because of that" or "but," but never "then." This is good advice in general, but especially when you're writing Grimdark.

For example, if your story goes "Bob beat Alice, and because of that, she had a miscarriage," or "Bob beat Alice, but she had to endure it because her minimum wage job wouldn't let her afford another place to live," it's dark, but it checks out, because it's clearly going somewhere and is a necessary part of the story. But if you say "Bob beat Alice, then Alice decided to kick a puppy for no reason," it doesn't.

Bad Grimdark happens for no reason, is a cheap way of characterizing people as "evil" when the story has no valid reason for them to be, or just happens to make the story "darker" without leading anywhere.

For example, I finished Oyasumi Punpun yesterday, and although a lot of people say it's a masterpiece, I didn't like the writing (no complaints about the art, though) because so much horrible stuff happens for no particular reason. The Love Interest has an abortion that has no connection to the rest of the plot and is never mentioned again, the main character tries to kill a rando just because he's in a bad mood - also never mentioned again - there's a rape (and two attempted ones) that serves no plot purpose, and there's a lot of Fan Disservice that's just there to be gross.

That's the kind of thing you shouldn't do.

edited 16th May '16 3:57:20 PM by Wheezy

I think you've succinctly summed up the reasons why I haven't minded some dark works but have absolutely hated others and I hadn't realised why until reading that post.

Looking back, and thinking on your post, the works I've hated have had the this then that approach to the dark events and just seemed to be shit happened because "hey fuck, is this edgy or what?" while the ones I haven't minded used "because of that" and "but" and came across as better stories.

I couldn't put my finger on the why of the matter, I just felt that the "then" style stories were "too bleak".

Thanks for that.

Hmm ... true that, yes.

Though generally it's a safe bet that if something makes the story darker but actually contributes to the plot by being there, it's just making it darker; and if something is there just to make it darker but has no place here, it's moving it towards that threshold. So have it as dark as you want, just don't have the darkness be ... hmm, let's say gratuitous, shall we. Because darkness that serves the plot makes it harder for the characters but potentially possible to overcome, and darkness that is there just to be there can smother the characters and make them choke in itself.

Thanks! I think, in general, that's the difference between any type of sex/violence/whatever coming off as gratuitous vs. appropriate. Sticking to what the plot calls for has a way of reining in the tendency to put over-the-top stuff in your story anyway.

In other words, it all boils down to the oft-quoted advice: if it doesn't advance the plot, don't include it.

How do you make it non-gratituous, especially un the case of sexual violence? I find it comes off as that a bit too often.

Depends on what kind of story you're making. In general, your setting should have at least one sympathetic, competent character, and end with a ray of hope. If you do both of these things, you can get away with a pretty dark story.

That's a fairly good question, actually.

Mostly, it is because sexual violence, just as sexuality in general, carries a stigma of some sort; and if normal violence would have done it in any given case then anything more than that, anything with a stigma of its own, simply comes across as gratuitous. It's the same as with torture where normal violence would have done the job, except that it's far easier to give a good reason as to why torture actually was necessary in-story than it is to give a reason for why sexual violence was.

Because, the pettiness of sexual violence aside—and when I say "petty" I don't mean "harmless" but rather the "wow, you suck at being evil, mister rapist" kind as exercising sexual violence kind of makes one fail at being evil properly—for the most part there are only four reasons that would validate the use of sexual violence over normal violence or any form of torture that is non-sexual in nature: The story being smut. The character getting traumatised and afraid of anything that has to do with sexuality. The character getting pregnant without having given consent. It being a direct result of the character's actions. Fleshing out part of the villain's character.

As you see, the reasons given ... well, it's kind of hard to find a time when you'd use those, when you'd even want to use those. Because the first one aside, as it is clear that you are not trying to write smut, all of the other reasons aren't ones that you would have all that often. I mean, making the character pregnant as a result of sexual violence (i.e. rape, in this case), that's kind of something that just leads to angst unless you both know what you are doing and have plans that pertain to it and even then you'd need a really good reason for those plans to make sexual violence actually necessary; because if it's just to break the character then we come back to torture, and if it's to incapacitate the character then there are other ways too, so the only reason in this case would be the emotional baggage and this reason isn't used all that often. The same about traumatising the character, it's a possibly cool reason and all but if you used that you'd have to make sure that it actually is plot-relevant later, so unless the character had to seduce some people to save the world later and happened not to be able to because of this trauma—and I think you'll have an easy time believing that that's kind of a weird plot, if seduction saves the world—you'd have a hard time actually playing this one.

Well, when it's the result of the character's own actions it's a little bit easier, because it's basically the character reaping what they'd sown, but then you'd have to justify the character actually attempting to approach whatever problem something was by trying to seduce someone who took such offence to it and decided to pay back in like—and if the character was willing to do that then it is very likely that for this character it's nothing more than an "everyday thing", not in that it happens every day but in that unless it has consequences it's worth nothing more than a shrug and going on with life; that sort of makes the situation not really dark, though, as the character pretty much fails to feel any worse after said sexual violence took place—and if it's going to be prolonged you'd have to also have a reason for why anyone would go that far and actually manage to get away with it (and, just as before, the character who is the victim may actually fail to feel all that worse because of it); it is worth noting, however, that one could use such a situation to show a part of a certain character that is "used to the darkness", so to say, if one played it well, so that one does have some potential.

And the last reason given ... well, that one has the most potential, yes. Because with this one, with fleshing out the villain's character, it's not so much about the victim as it is about the perpetrator so the perspective shifts. However, to actually use this reason effectively you would need to focus on the villain rather than on their victim, which is one thing, and you'd also need to actually give the readers a reason to care about the villain before that even happens, because unless they care enough most of them will just proclaim it despicable and disgusting and write the villain off ... though then again, that might actually be the point so it could be used to show the character's alleged irredeemability. Though, of course, if it's simply to show that the character is just that bad then there are other ways too—unless you actually have a reason not to use those—so we once again get to torture.


So yeah, sexual violence will come across as gratuitous unless you can justify its presence over presence of any other form of violence. Which is kind of harder than some people think because resorting to sexual violence means one fails at being properly evil anyway.

Another few options are either having jokes, or having characters who stay upbeat even amongst the darkness. But that might be hard to balance tonewise.

5 Elementos is this in their finest. The setting is very filled with jokes and silliness. But is because actually the setting is depressing.

A post-post-war world with lots of Fantastic Racism and a gobverment conspiracy with human experiments, a good bunch of free war criminals (and ones are teaching in a elementary school -No pun here-). Lost of traumatized people and a good bunch of negligent parents, at best.

When the nicer character is a kid who depend of his best friend to survive is a proof who the world is bad one. (Oh, and he not is the only, are a entire breed who make that).

And of course a lot of childrens who can't touch others living beings aside their families.

edited 16th Nov '15 3:17:38 PM by KazuyaProta

Concurring with those who say that humour is a good way to avoid making the story too damn dark. When discussing "dark, but not too dark" I find that Sergio Leone's films are a good measuring stick. The world it features is dark and brutal, certainly, but Leone still throws in a large number of either physical jokes or humourous lines so that nobody storms out of the theatre in disgust.

Ah, yes, that is a good point, humour.

Then again, that the characters can joke means that they still have hope, and that in itself can be quite a deterrent as far as going too dark is concerned. So it does make sense that humour helps with that.

The joking could just be Gallows Humour - which in Real Life has been uttered by those with quite literally no hope left - except that possibly the end will be quick and painless rather than lingering.

Just to pick a good example of that, the death of Cheyenne in Once Upon A Time In The West. It's a sad moment, in what is overall a pretty bleak film, but the way Cheyenne himself treats it ("Harmonica, when they do you in? Pray it's somebody who knows where to shoot.") helps to counterbalance the worst of the sting.

@Faemonic: that article is great. Very humbling.

@RPG Legend: Hope is the key. Hope is what gives your protagonist the will to go on. Hope is what keeps a rape victim from slitting her wrists in a bathtub. Hope is what keeps a wounded veteran with PTSD from blowing their brains out. Hope is a double-edged sword that promises happiness but might only bring more sorrow. It's the key, I tell you

edited 17th Nov '15 12:55:48 PM by nekomoon14

As with what's said in the earlier posts, I believe the key to writing dark, extremely depressing stories is to make sure that all the horrible things that happen happen for a reason. You shouldn't think, "Is it too dark?" but rather "Is it pointlessly, ridiculously dark?" Humour, as also suggested, can help counterweight overall darkness as well, but I'm in the camp that believe a very grim piece can be without any humour at all and still works, if it manages to be coherent and maintains captivating elements. YMMV on this, but I'd cite 8mm as a decent example of how an extremely dark work can still be entertaining.

I was enjoying The Shadow Line - it was fairly dark but seemed to be logical, consistent etc - until the very end when they decided "Fuck it, we'll show them that this is darker than the utterly dark dark of utter darkness" and went from a "...because of this..." to a "...then..." - apparently "just because".

Completely fucking ruined it for me.

edited 18th Nov '15 1:16:08 AM by Wolf1066

Having a Point of Hope helps - it gives both the characters and the readers something to strive towards, something to wish for, even if the chances are very slim.

A dark work that isn't pointlessly dark will/should have Points of Hope, I believe. Removing all Points of Hope pretty much requires stripping out all reason.

edited 18th Nov '15 8:29:35 AM by hellomoto