The U.S. Culture(s) thread

For my money, "doing more" doesn't equate to "doing better". I said something similar in another thread, but making a bunch of different bad things isn't better than making one or two types of bad things.

Something something Surgeon's Law. It isn't that it's all bad, it's that there's just way more so that even if there are 9 bad things there will still be one good thing. Multiply this by 100 and you get like 10 good seasons a year, so in the time it takes cartoons over here to crank out like 4-5 really good shows over a period of 4 or so years youmd get 40 good anime series.

That's what I mean. You get more shit, but all that means is that there's more competition in the field, rather than 3 big channels monopolizing the market, with 2 of those 3 channels having one or two mediocre shows monopolizing airtime further.

You could make the same comparison to British television, or the rise of Netflix. It used to be that if a shitty show went on television, you were stuck with it for the next 2-4 years, longer if it got popular. These days, sure, Iron Fist might suck, but Stranger Things 2 comes out this fall.

"Dear Netflix,

Can I have less Iron Fist in the new Night Nurse show? You obviously made a mistake by accidentally focussing on the generically escapist white dude character, thereby obscuring the really meaty plot. More Claire Temple, plz."

edited 27th Mar '17 3:08:57 PM by Euodiachloris

But that's what I'm saying, though. You can't really say anime is generally better than WA based on how many more good shows there are, because within a year, there's just more anime being made overall. Sure, there might be 40 good anime series, but out of how much?

Let's think of it like this: say, for example, 50 anime series were made over the course of five years. Now let's say that 20 any of them are any good. That's a little less than half. Now let's say at that same time, 5 new American cartoons were produced, but out of those five, only two were worthwhile. That's also just under half. So in that example, Japan still has more good anime than we do American cartoons, but only because Japan is making more stuff. If America produced as much animated series as Japan did, we'd probably have the same ratio of good-to-bad shows.

But that's exactly what I mean. The low rate of American production isn't just a random quirk, it's a genuine downside. It means that the top dog shows (Spongebob, Teen Titans Go) don't have to do shit to keep their position, so you see gradual quality decline over time. Meanwhile, the other creators have to fight tooth and nail to get their work up on the air, and even then they have to fight with garbage tier network scheduling and Executive Meddling. And because the market is still far less competitive even then, your storyboarders and animators aren't going to have the same amount of skill, skill that only comes from hands on experience that the big film studios aren't giving anymore.

Do you have anything to back this up, Odder? Because it seems like you're making a whole lot of assumptions. Especially the skill part, because a lot of the stuff that does make it to TV is, in fact, on par with whatever your favorite anime is. It sounds like you've got at least some bias clouding your judgment here.

In any case, I don't think the "making less animation" is a disadvantage, really, so much as simply a product of the fact that we've seen animation as kiddie stuff for a long time. And we're beginning to see a growth in the industry.

Also, Spongebob is subject to the same problems as any long running show: eventually the people working on it run out of ideas or stop caring. Also also, long running shows are more subject to having a bad run simply for lasting so long. Neither of these is really a unique problem to the animation industry.

edited 27th Mar '17 4:47:31 PM by AceofSpades

You seem to be operating on the logic of "more competition = better material", which if that were the case, there wouldn't be so many run-of-the-mill tsundere harem shows, let alone so many that take place in a fantasy setting.^note And the only reason I kinda let that last one off the hook is because the MC isn't a complete and total loser. Hell, we get so many of those that Girlish Number completely took the piss out of such shows (and their production).

I mean, this season alone, we're getting what looks to be such a show, a generic-looking LN adaptation, more of that dungeon show, yet another mobile game adaptation, what is apparently *another* harem show, and I guess cute girls promoting tourism. I mean, if lack of competition is why American animation is faltering, doesn't that mean we should be seeing less of this from Japan?

also TTG never declined in quality, it was always that bad

Hell, the big three are some of the most infamous examples of this in anime. Naruto lives on through that Boruto thing, and I think even One Piece is still going.

edited 27th Mar '17 7:37:22 PM by PhysicalStamina

Having a lot of works and studios allows Japanese animators to go for niches, however it also means that whatever wants to be accepted into the mainstream to also be obliged to use some really annoying tropes, like the generic every dude being the audience surrogate, insufferable amounts of fan service, cute girls doing cute girls things, protagonist centered morality, all sorts of harems and lots of power fantasies to appeal to a prepubescent public.

Western Animation doesn't tend to have too many power fantasies.

Western videogames (videogames in general really) on the other hand...

edited 27th Mar '17 8:22:16 PM by M84

That may be inherent to video games though. I don't see a game selling well based on mundane life or This Loser Is You.
The type of power fantasy though, (developers might want to take a break from the One-Man Army busting into the tyrant's room and slaying him without trial then the skies clear and the oppressed people magically parade in light descended from the heavens...)
And now, that I think of it, are there any narratives about actually rebuilding the polity after overthrowing The Evil Empire?

edited 27th Mar '17 8:32:37 PM by CenturyEye

Videogames is another thing though.

The whole thing of giving the character, therefore you, agency and the control on a world of your liking to act as you wish (within the game's limitations) is a power fantasy regardless of the type of game.

I mean it is easier to make a list of games that wouldn't be power fantasies than those who fit the bill.

Far Cry 4 deals with that in a way that completely destroys the idea that beating the antagonist is the best course of action, as the two factions you can support become the Taliban or the Khmer Rouge and it has a secret ending that can cut your gameplay to 20 minutes, completely avoids the shooting an action but it is the best possible ending for the game.

edited 27th Mar '17 8:37:02 PM by AngelusNox

A lot of games do start with the protagonist being a loser (which I guess is supposed to make it easier to relate...) only to become a badass later in the game. Though the games at least do tend to put them through hell in the process. In the more cynical games, one could argue that they would have been happier staying a "loser". And then there are games where the protagonist is a loser and stays a loser regardless of how superficially badass they might appear. Off the top of my head, there's Spec Ops: The Line.

Sorry, I guess this is veering off from U.S. Culture, since this isn't limited to U.S. based games. I guess one could spend time looking at just what kinds of games appeal more to U.S. customers...

edited 27th Mar '17 8:42:56 PM by M84

Maybe because I am used to older games but US game studios usually went along with these lines: you're a badass, here is a gun and here are the bad guys. No questions, just kill everyone who gets in your way. Let us deal with characterization and plot later.

Quite a few games are still that but even easier (duck and cover gameplay anyone?) so that players can continue the fantasy without letting a pesky thing like a lack of good hand-eye coordination get in the way. At least in terms of gameplay. Nowadays, even some modern shooters explore the limitations of what a badass with a gun can do to solve major problems.

One of the reasons why I mainly prefer Japanese games over North American/European ones, as they tend to be more creative and do more with their story than "you strong American/British soldier/civilian with gun. They evil Russians/Arabs/Nazis/Chinese/terrorists/zombies/aliens. Go and kill". There are some creative North American/European games, but you have to look at Gen 6 and before as well as Indies for most of them.

edited 27th Mar '17 9:27:26 PM by Bat178

I think the fact that shooting is such a prevalent thing from western, especially US developers is pretty telling of the culture. If the US's gun culture wasn't what it was I don't think the FPS would have been developed and taken off to such a degree.

Nah, I still like the US shooters better for that.

You, guns, plenty of enemies, limited ammo and health, some secrets to find and the whole deal is to deal as much damage as you can while avoiding taking damage.

I still play the classic Doom, Quake, Serious Sam, Half-Life and Turok once in a while to remind myself of how hard older shooters can be.

Then you have Deus Ex and System Shock to remind you how awesome having games with long and complex you will have to find it yourself stories and plot can be.

What I don't really like about Japanese games is the excessive grind, the glam and how every character is a fashion statement. I really prefer things to be straightforward instead of linking hit combos and dealing with enemies and characters that blew their budgets on clothes and hairdos.

You are really only referring to JRP Gs with your "excessive grind, the glam, how every character is a fashion statement, linking hit combos and dealing with enemies and characters that blew their budgets on clothes and hairdos" argument. There are plenty of Japanese games that don't fall into that, particularly from Gens 3 through 6 when Japan ruled the console gaming industry.

edited 27th Mar '17 9:19:44 PM by Bat178

You mean like Metroid, Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda and Resident Evil?

Correct.

Perhaps people here ought to reconsider their life choices stay more on-topic. Japanese video games aren't really the focus of the U.S. culture thread, after all.

If one looks outside the FPS/third person adventure industries one can find plenty of creative western video games, though many have been killed off over the years, EA in particularly has a reputation for killing interesting and creative studios.

Blame that on the general gaming audience not caring enough about the output of such studios. The reason big-budget FPS/action games with burly men and muted colors remain at the forefront is because they sell the most. The more creative ones tend to become Cult Classics at best.

Extra Credits had a video on why the shooter is so popular in the US. Basically, US culture has a strong individualist bent and likes guns. The individualist bent makes the first-person perspective more desirable.

I'd argue that the US and Japan are Not So Different in regards to creativity. Keep in mind there are plenty of US shooters with a lot of creativity. Deus Ex, Bioshock, Half-Life, Mass Effect, Portal, ect.

Now, to be fair, one might argue some of those games aren't shooters, but I'd argue that's a tautological argument. If you define the shooter genre as games like COD, it'll be filled with a lot of games like COD.

The idea that all western AAA games are shooty shooty mcbangbang hero of duty 11 is really, really not true anymore, and really hasn't been true since the days of the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. Even Call of Duty hasn't touched regular old modern day white dudes shooting regular old not-white terrorists in years. It's like saying that all eastern AAA games are friendship and magic rpg grindventures, it's just not true.

That being said the power fantasy aspect is 100% true, but I'd argue that it can in many ways be extended to basically all video games that use violence as a game mechanic (read: almost all video games). Pokemon is a power fantasy. JRPGs trend towards power fantasy, hence why the nameless faceless protagonist is such an established trope. And even the remainder of video games tend to use escapism fantasy as a device as well, read: all RPGs even that one you really liked. It's just a trend in entertainment. That being said there are games like Papers, Please that use A Loser Is You as the basis for all gameplay. And of course it's not like power fantasy is the sole or even biggest appeal of video games.

Re: Animation: I'm sorry but I can't really see how, on a purely technical level, 2d animation in the west is on par with 2d animation in the east in the current age. Just visually, the best commercially produced anime is heads and tails above the currently best commercially produced western cartoons. That's just not true, hell it's not even really feasible considering how little attention 2D animation gets these days compared to CGI films (which are absolutely gorgeous these days). A lot of them look decent, some of them look good, a few of them even look really nice, but none of them really look outstanding or spectacular. I'll admit it's twenty steps too far to claim that this reflects on the storyboarders and animators. It's more that there just aren't any real passion projects in the west to make traditionally animated works that just look amazing, with the sole exception of ‎Laika, which dabbles entirely in stopmotion.

And I say that these are things unique to the western industry, because over the last 10 years with the gradual collapse of the television model in anime we've seen a lot of those same trends die down with it. While there are still "long runners" in anime, there really are very few Spongebob/Simpsons/Family Guy tier zombie series, with the exception of some of the last few hangovers from the 2000s like One Piece. And yes, all of this steps from the long, long, loooong shadow of Walt Disney over the industry, and yes, things are getting better. But they aren't there yet, and it'll be a long time before things are there.

@Totemic Hero: This is pretty on-topic. Discussing the differences between western produced media and Japanese media is pretty relevant to US Culture, albeit pop culture.