Superhumans in the Second World War

I'm just curious. I understand that the super-soldier program was a big deal in the Marvel Universe. Now, I'm busy reading "the Big One". I'm just curious, has anyone actually done a realistic take on what would happen if the super-soldier program, and mutants, were actually deployed in the second world war?

I know that the Godlike rpg and the Wild Talents rpg did something similar on the subject. I'm just wondering if anyone thought about it or discussed it in detail.

You should consider reading Über

Perhaps it would be worth your time to take a look at Godlike, a tabletop Role-playing game based on that premise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godlike_%28role-playing_game%29

I have read Uber. I was thinking that the drug D-IX that Nazi's used was secretly some sort of alien / magictech, and that significantly altered the shape of the war.

I don't think they were ever deployed, but the earlier half of the 00-number Cyborgs from Cyborg009 date from that era.

There's also Gigantor, wherein the robot is a WW 2 artifact that becomes increasingly obsolete as time passes.

...Y'know, it's funny. I can probably dig up a dozen examples from Japanese media that are more or less what you're thinking of - up until the point of actually being deployed. I think that might even be the 'realistic take' on the trope, adjusted for culture. Unleashing that level of power on an enemy looks less like a good thing and more like a war crime. Historical accuracy keeps trumping triumphalism in those examples, and it got me thinking. The more I sit and really examine how superhumans are used in modern media, the more I'm unsettled by the 'wartime superhuman' trope. It's its own deconstruction.

Oh, and I think Top Ten had some stuff set during WWII. The key there isn't that both/all sides had superhumans working for them, but what do they do in peacetime?

Interesting.

I was thinking that the power-level would probably be around Captain America, and maybe eCollapse or Godlike. I wanted to keep the science as grounded as possible. Basically, my idea was "what if the Nazi and American super-soldier program actually existed like they said it did in the comics?" The feeling I'm going for is similar to how Peter Watts approached the Crysis video games. A bit of sci-fi horror.

The idea was that the German Ahnenerbe, during an expedition to the found some sort of sufficiently-advanced-technology in the caves of Mauern in the Jura mountains of Bavaria. I would have preferred some sort of impact event like Tunguska, but I couldn't find any. My idea is that its similar to the concept of a higher-dimensional being by Michio Kaku, basically 4th dimensional tech, like the Tesseract.

Anyway, the Germans poke around with it, and they manage to find out that it can give superpowers. It's history then parallels the D-IX drug. They discover that only a few people will react to the substance, and that the substance gives people powers to overcome dangers. The powers cause people to overgo serious physical mutations. Again, think the Nanosuit in Crysis 2, how it slowly invaded and overcame the wearer's body.

The key here is that the MAGITECH doesn't just give people powers to overcome physical threats, the psychological ones as well. Meaning, the more mentally screwed up you are, the more powers you get. And since the powers feed into your fears, theres a possibility that you will become more crazy.

Naturally, the Nazis, who always placed their ideology over actual science, try to make sure that only the "racially pure" get superpowers. This gives the Allies the edge, and the Allies superior intelligence network means that they get their hands on some of the MAGITECH too.

It sounds different in its cause, but the execution is reminiscent of the Captain America The First Avenger version of the Red Skull. Not Steve and his courage, but just the Red Skull. It's a bit frightening, and I'm curious as to how they can claim 'purity' when their first examples turn out to have some hidden disorders...

Also, does that mean the superhuman's powers increase in proportion to the psychological issue(s) they have, or the number of them? What the first one means is, you could give the drug to a rape victim immediately after the fact, and get a Kid Miracleman for as long as it takes them to burn themselves out.

To your first point, that was one of the conscious points. I remember watching Captain America: The First Avenger, and I remember thinking that captain's shield would do squat to protect him from a sniper's bullet or a flame thrower or a powerful enough artillery bombardment or air strike. Not to mention running around covered in red, white, and blue makes camouflage next to impossible. One of the ideas was to apply the concept of Captain America, and in particular the whole super-soldier program, to a "realistic" sense.

The Nazi's were well-known for sacrificing scientific accuracy in favor of their ideology. The Nazi government expelled many of their foremost physicists and scientists for being Jewish, and the Nazi's wasted huge amounts of resources on the Holocaust, resources that would have been better spent fighting on the front.

My idea was that they would probably find some sort of weird looking tree with some weird looking fruit, and they would think either the Tree of Life or the Apple's of Idun. I know Hitler himself didn't place much stock in the occult, but Himmler sure did, and he was the one ultimately responsible for the expedition in Moeurn. Also, Hitler did love his superweapons.

I was reading about the novel Sphereland and Flatland, and I was thinking that it would probably be non-Euclidian in nature, giving it a lovecraftian feel, which makes sense, since they are dealing with tech that, at least to the scientists of those days, does not make any sense.

My idea was that the powers themselves are alive in some sense, and symbiotic. They would probably respond to deep-seated, pathological issues. For example, someone who was scared once of fire would not get powers. However, someone who severely pyrophobic would probably either 1) have their brain tinkered with in order to make sure they didn't become afraid, such as spiking their dopamine levels or something (sorry, not up to my neuroscience), or 2) be given some power that makes them instinctively put out fires as a fight-or-flight response, to such an extent that they would probably have to concentrate really hard not to put out fires. The symbiot would probably go for the latter, since making you unafraid from being burnt doesn't stop you from actually being burnt. It's all about improving biological fitness.

A big problem I have is power. Where does the power come from to fuel all of this? I was hoping for some sci-fi concept. I mean, Iron Man's armor is possible provided you actually have a proper power source. Zero-point energy? Drawing in energy from another space-time continuum with different physical constants? Fourth-dimensional technology? Any suggestions would be helpful.

edited 1st Oct '14 2:35:00 PM by Coinage

Couldn't the power source, simply be the human. If the tech is forming a symbiotic relationship with the human, it might drawn power from the energy within their bodies. The consequence of this would be that they would become very weak after prolonged power use and they would have to eat a lot more than a normal human.

edited 2nd Oct '14 10:54:01 AM by aoide12

True, I think that would be one power-source. Humans would have to eat a lot more. It would serve to limit their abilities, and also force the "supers" to be like tanks or nukes: powerful, but they require a LOT of maintenance.

Still, if you want something on the level of Iron Man or something like that, you need something REALLY powerful that can give it a lot of juice. I've been running through some options. I want to keep this as grounded in sicence as possible, because 1) World War 2 really was when Science really became an integral part of warfare, as evidenced by the Nazi's Wanderwaffe and the American Manhattan Project, and 2) one of the themes I want to explore is how warfare can dehumanize people. Similar to how in the comic Uber, the eponymous Ubers or "battleships" are treated as nothing more than weapons.

Some ideas for power sources are:

1) Black holes Can't be done. Artificially created black holes make for great sources of energy due to Hawking radiation, but they tend to weight at least millions of tonnes, and they get EXTREMELY hot.

2) Zero-Point Energy. No known method of extracting zero point energy exists.

3) Electrocytes. Possible. Electric Eels and other electric organisms generate electricity because they possess electrocytes. However, to get something on par with, say, and electro-laser requires a LOT of power, and I doubt that biological electrocytes can deliver the necessary juice.

4) Higher-dimensional tech. Theoretically, a higher-dimensional being would have the power of an omnipotent god, so providing power would not be a problem. However, why would an omnipotent god be limited to simply powering human augmentation tech? I suppose if there were more than one gods, and they were fighting each other in some sort of cold war.

5) Secondary batteries. If, lets say, part fo the mutations resulted in the hosts generating secondary batteries to further fuel themselves, it would go a long way to further adding to the whole "bio-horror" feel. Plus, it also restricts their powers. You wanna lift a tank? Sure! Oh, wait, you've got to power yourself first.

Anyone with a background in physics can help.

edited 2nd Oct '14 1:42:39 PM by Coinage

...if they're so empathetic, why not just make them feed on the person's emotions? That neatly explains why the more severely messed-up (emotionally unstable) a person is, the more power they get.

But if you must have an explicitly sci-fi power source, why not radiation? Cobalt-60 would've been known to the Nazis just before the US entered the war, maybe, and you could excuse that away with parallel research anyhow. (Plus, a 5-year half-life means that the 'Jacke-Troopen' would be disabled on a timely basis.)

edited 3rd Oct '14 2:06:39 PM by DeusDenuo

It's not that their exactly "empathetic". It's more like that their extremely symbiotic, and that the "powers" are very good at reading a person's stressors, and their body language and physiological response, and acting in response.

I'm just wondering, how would you use Cobalt-60 to provide fuel?

No, Cobalt-60 is the fuel itself. Are you looking for the mechanism by which it sustains the superhuman's abilities? (Because frankly I'm not sure what you mean by 'power' or 'fuel otherwise, and you listed possible sources that would require far more explanation than a single chunk of radioactive material.)

All elements produce various types of radiation as they degrade - the ones we consider radioactive degrade relatively quickly and produce radiation at rates and in quantities that are harmful to humans. So my thought here is that the standard superhuman power amongst your superhumans is actually a form of regeneration, and any additional powers are triggered in response to how much the superhuman must regenerate (while taking forms based on the user's psyche). Constant exposure to a bit of incredibly hazardous Cobalt-60 would force constant regeneration, and as a side-effect, greater power.

I'd also like to add that your read of MCU-Captain America and his shield would only be valid with Hollywood Tactics in play. You realistically don't send ground troops into the targeting range of artillery or air strikes (he actually survives one in the second movie anyway), because that's a waste of time and lives; snipers should be dealt with carefully (other snipers) and with artillery if you've got it; flamethrowers are an impractical anti-human weapon due to their many limitations (the ones in the movie have an unrealistically long burn time as well). Camouflage is also not limited to the uniform you wear - you should see the outfits modern military snipers will equip - but natural cover as well. And despite kicking out anyone who was Jewish, the Nazis still had a formidable rocketry program.

Wow, that could actually work! Thanks

Just curious, how much power would Cobalt-60 be able to generate? (Sorry, if I'm using the wrong word. It's been a while since I've taken physics).

Yeah, I know. I wanted to avoid Hollywood Tactics. My idea is that they would be similar to tanks or strategic weapons. They have their uses, but they also have definite weaknesses (like having to ration power, and requiring a fair degree of maintenance), so they won't win the war on their own. Plus there's all the psychological issues. Man of Steel, Women of Kleenex comes to mind.

True, the Nazi's did have a good rocketry program. However, their nuclear program suffered greatly due to the lack of talent, as a lot of scientists left due to politicization of science.

Glad you found it useful.

But again, 'power' is really unhelpful as a description. If you're thinking about it in terms of nuclear power, Cobalt-60 isn't used for that. A) It's a man-made isotope and is thus expensive to produce, and B) its half-life is too short to realistically use to generate electricity from (is that what you meant by 'power'?). I linked to the Wiki page - that should be enough for you to research systems of energy measurement (as they pertain to radiation, anyway) on your own. If not, the Gray is probably the most relevant unit. This chart is also helpful.

(Sieverts, which that chart uses, are the international measurement for radiation dosage potential; Grays are calculated the exact same way, but is absorbed radiation. Really simplified, it's steam spewing out the kettle versus the steam it took to scald your hand.)

Using Cobalt-60 as a catalyst for superpowers using the method I suggested (that is, the superpowers are a side effect of the person's body's response to catastrophic cellular damage) would require keeping it in very close proximity, as the absorbed dose falls off the further away you are from the source, and you don't need more than a small amount. An implant or direct skin contact from a coin-sized chunk of it will do. Naturally, the person will need to be shielded somehow - but that's not going to happen as gamma radiation penetrates everything, so the only thing keeping the superhuman's handlers alive is distance and a few inches of Lead. I would add an explanation that one of the Required Secondary Powers they have is preventing that radiation from leaving their person (which could be read as the 'powers' being selfish with their source).

Incidentally, I suggested Cobalt-60 as it is really freakin' dangerous, being something that has a primarily medical use and not as controlled as nuclear power plant fuel. Here, have some Nightmare Fuel about pretty blue sparklies. If you ever see something that naturally glows blue, walk briskly in the other direction.

If someone who understands this better is around, by all means correct me, as I only have a surface understanding of this.

Nuclear power plants are essentially steam power plants, just with a different source of fuel ('heat' if you want) to convert water into moving water vapor. This would have been madness to try and scale down during WW 2, and I don't recommend your trying to shoehorn it in as that would elevate Nazi Germany to a nuclear power despite having never produced nuclear weapons and letting the people who might have been able to do it slip through their dumbass fingers.

Another idea I thought of was located here [1].

Here's my ideas so far.

Basically, the mutagen (that's what I'm calling it for now), intially takes the form similar to a large willow bark and an ash tree. The leaves, however, are similar to Ephidra sinica. The "fruit" of the tree is actually an egg, hosting an organism similar to a tape worm. When the "worm" is ingested, it breaks out of it's egg, and heads straight for the brain, depositing all sorts of nanomachines inside the body. The worm then "worms" it's way inside the brain, and directs the nanomachine how to re-write the host body as soon as possible. Incubation is a lot like Ebola, so it takes maybe Twenty to Thirty Days before the symptoms really set in. The first thing it does it that it finds a source of power or fuel. Solar collectors are grown on the skin. Fuel cells and electrocytes will be organically grown. Any source of electrical energy is located.

Then the mutagen starts altering the host to maximize survivability (or at least, survivability as the worm defines it). It accesses the brain, and starts finding out what causes distress, and mutates it.

Throughout the initial stage of mutation, the subject will experience constant cravings for food, as well as any form of energy and electricity.

By that time, the "worm" has transformed into a sort of "weed" that has infested the entire brain, and much of the body to the point where it cannot be removed.

Mutations will begin in "spurts", so the mutagen won't keep changing a person much. If a major threat to survival is detected, and current abilities are deemed insufficient, then the cycle begins again.

...though the fact that the link is 9 years old might be an indication of how well the tech actually works.

Sounds like an overly science-y explanation for Devil Fruits - and frankly a better explanation than that series is capable of offering, I think - by way of the first House episode (that's a worm larva, incidentally) and a bit of Schlock Mercenary for the 'body conversion' part.

I don't think 'solar collectors' will be of much use in a northern, European climate, and that your mutant should probably only grow the most effective energy ('power') collectors/convertors it can for the environment it is in. Heat would be another option.

I would have the worm cause the person to hallucinate their worst fears, and base their powerset to be most effective against them (though they end up being quite effective against more mundane threats). An arachnophobe spiders gains super-strength to squish spider, a pyrophobe gains Blow You Away to extinguish fires, a monophobe (specifically, the fear of being alone) gains Love Magnet powers, etc. You can see the military applications for all of these, I'm sure.

You can always kill a weed, y'know; you just can't fill the space it leaves behind when it rots away, and I think that would make a better explanation.

My concern is that this looks like a Superpower Lottery that's hard to 'win' and very easy to pull a consolation prize in. There's no evident risk or downside to infesting yourself, and I would add one.

edited 8th Oct '14 1:03:09 PM by DeusDenuo

Right, so having the powrs being partly psychogenic in nature would help, got it.

Perhaps then the lack of power would be a downside. They could require basically whole teams of scientists and engineers to make sure they had the recquisite electrical power to function.

A major downside would be the body horror. Not to mention having some sort of larva crawling around in your brain, causing hallucinations, is going to be damaging to your psyche. The military would probably make sure that only people they deem worthy would be able to be augmented. Not to mention you would be spending the rest of your life living next to electrical power plants just to make sure that most of your cool powers function.

If I really wanted to go out there, I suppose I could copy from Asimov's "the Gods themselves". The ubers could be powered by a miniature worhole that transfers electrons from another universe with different physical constants.

What about atomic batteries.

Perhaps the larva basically turns the body inside out, getting rid of anything deemed "unessential", and transforming a large part of the person's physiology into carbon-nanotube reinforced portable radioisotope thermoelectric generators. Congratulations, not only do you have to eat like a horse, you now have to ingest plutonium-238 in order to keep your body going.

Atomic batteries are long-lasting but low-power overall, and aren't an efficient use of nuclear material in a war machine. It's why modern battle vehicles use fossil fuels, which are used up instantly in a relatively high-energy reaction that we have trouble harnessing efficiently. (The reason the ones Dr. Octavius' - in SpiderMan2 and the Spider Man The Animated Series - are so impressive in-universe, is that he's found a way to make them shorter-lived but explosively high-output.)

Those new setups would only work as war machines in an era where nuclear refining technology and industry could keep up with the demand. Since those were both basically nil during WWII, you'd have to update the setting or abandon them as an energy source... or explain why there's abundant plutonium-238 at a time where there's no other use for it. (Put another way - Germany wouldn't have needed to start WWII if they had that capability, as exporting the refined nuclear material alone would've made them the richest country on the planet.)

What about a powerful advanced battery or fuel cell. I know that power-armor does (in a sense) exist, it's just that the only problem is that the battery life doesn't last long. Would it be possible to in essence create a longer lasting battery?

Like what Gundam Seed was using at first? You could probably make do with fuel cells - the problem would just be total cost, cell power source size, but most importantly efficiency. For example, your average gasoline internal combustion engine gets something like low to mid-20% efficiency, but the car itself is going to still be capable of output that would seem remarkable to someone from WWII because engineering techniques and materials have improved spectacularly since then. (And yet the original VW Bug is still a half-decent car, to the point that WWII probably wouldn't have happened in a world where Hitler never became more than a spokesperson for Volkswagon and the Bug.)

Look to how portable consumer technology has advanced: any increase in battery life is generally gained inch by inch from better power usage/management, not from spectacular increases in battery tech. I think you could build Stark-style Variable Threat Response Suits sans repulsors now, but they'd have to be the size of the Iron Monger(?) suit from the first movie and would suck down power like a kid in a milkshake shop, simply because the tech to operate them efficiently (motors, servos, actuators, etc.) doesn't exist. (That, and armor materials can't keep up with an RPG or depleted uranium .50 cal.)

So, just to make sure my point didn't get lost - a somewhat advanced battery (or other power source) powering something highly efficiently, would probably make more sense than a highly advanced battery powering something at average efficiency. That is the easier explanation, as the export market for highly advanced power sources would cut the legs out from a justification for war. (And this is how the first Iron Man movie went, if you need another reason to re-watch it. )

Indeed. I don't want the power source to be totally reverse-engineered by the scientists of the time. The whole point is to try and recreate the super-soldier program in captain america, and see how it would realistic work.

Really? I just want to make sure that the fuel cell could be rechargeable.

Perhaps multiple power sources would work: fuel cells, electrocytes, solar converters (probably would only work on highly sunny days).

How would they create an Iron Monger suit?