Ambiguous Name: Lets You And Him Fight

Given the evidence of misuse and some confusion, I've hooked a rename crowner to gauge whether there is agreement for a rename.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Votes bump!

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I would think the title requires that there be a third party manipulating/encouraging two people to fight each other. "Let's you and him fight" means in plain English that there is a person, addressing a second person, telling them to fight a third person. Situations where two people fight each other either accidentally or out of boredom shouldn't be part of the trope.

So I guess the question would be whether "third party convinces two others to fight each other" is different than "two parties meet and fight by accident or confusion". If we think there should be one trope covering those concepts, then the trope needs to be renamed. If we think they are distinct tropes, then Let's You and Him Fight could keep that name but list only "third party arranges fight" examples, and a new trope could describe instances where two people fight by accident.

edited 18th Nov '14 10:42:33 AM by gallium

This needs to be split into two tropes.

Super-Trope: Two parties senselessly fight each other. Sub-Trope: The first is two heroes fighting due to a misunderstanding, then team up. Sub-Trope: A third party manipulates two other parties into fighting each other, usually against their better interests. Doesn't have to be a villain and two heroes - a hero can do this by starting an Enemy Civil War or gang war between antagonist factions.

No split consensus yet.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

In most cases, it is the writer who manipulates them into fighting each other.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Sure, third party convinces two others who otherwise would not be fighting to fight is a fine requirement. That doesn't change teaming up against said third third party is required. (Again, Popeye wasn't going to punch Wimpy)

I suppose it doesn't even have to be a purposeful thing. The Germans didn't really set out to make Namor attack New York, but their actions made him attack New York anyway, till he realized Germany was the real culprit.

Crowner at 16:11

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Extending clock; no consensus yet.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Since last report, there've been 7 additional yes votes versus no additional no votes.

edited 8th Feb '15 10:57:39 PM by Leaper

Good grief, this one's been around forever...calling for the rename.

Isn't the trope where a villain manipulates two heroes into fighting each other Divide and Conquer?

—R.J.

Divide and Conquer is a forced Let's Split Up, Gang! of the heroes by the villains. Totally totally different from 'manipulating the heroes to fight one another'

This needs to be renamed or split or somehow repaired, the name is just confusing to everyone, and the description seems to contradict itself slightly, and there's plenty of misuse around.

I am the man who was slain by a ghoul, became a vampire, became a ghoul that killed my human self, became a soul in a sword.

As I said back in Post 6, Fight Then Team Up is a valid redirect for this page. Then again, in Post 25, I suggested that that name be used for a Sub-Trope wherein the fight was caused by either an outside force or Jurisdiction Friction. (Or else, if this LYAHF is that Trope, that we also devise a Super-Trope to cover the other instances.)

Marvel Misunderstanding is as well, but it suffers from Trope Namer Syndrome and thus should be left at redirect status.

Names previously suggested for the new name:

• Fight Then Team Up
• Heroic Misunderstanding
• Strangers On The Same Side
• Heroic Intruder
• Same Affiliation Foes
• Fighting The Future Friend

Also, we still need to decide whether this Trope is the broader case of "Heroes fight each other in anger" or the more specific case of "Heroes are manipulated by outside forces to fight each other in anger" EDIT: or whether the even more specific case of "a reckoning against said 'outside forces' being required". (The "in anger" part disqualifies Friendly competitions.)

edited 27th Jun '15 7:09:07 AM by DonaldthePotholer

No, we don't. We already have the definition, it was posted quite clearly in post #8. The definition is neither of the things you wrote.

This trope is about two characters who fight, find new respect for one another during the fight, and become friends; teaming up against a third party. Anger is not a requirement, manipulation is not a requirement. This is a very broad trope; you are welcome to take subtrope proposals to YKTTW.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

So Let Me Get This Straight...: This trope requires there to be two (or more) persons or factions:

• ostensively of the same alliegence or who were previously neutral to each other
• who are either unknowns, knowns who do not respect each other (e.g. Jurisdiction Friction), or knowns that have lost each other's respect
• who do battle against each other^note and in the third case, the battle may be due to matters unrelated to the incident wherein the respect was lost
• in the resolution to the battle, they (re)gain each other's respect^note or at least enough of a measure to consider each other Worthy Opponents
• and they then take their newly found teamwork against a third party who may or may not have any relationship to either the initial (point 2) or recently-resolved (point 3) dispute.

If this is the case, then there is still the matter of cases where the third party does not exist. The Laconic doesn't seem to think that the presence of a third party (however relevant) is a requirement.

Then again, your response in the TRS thread on Fighting Your Friend suggests that that be the Super-Trope wherein the third party is not required; except that that trope requires that the combatants were previously friends (Case 3 in Point 2, leaving the other 2 cases unaddressed.)

By the way, "in anger'' comes from the military usage listed here, perhaps I should've used "with intent", though I don't see how that would've excluded friendly competitions.

edited 27th Jun '15 9:20:42 AM by DonaldthePotholer

The third party, for this trope, could be a tsunami about to destroy New York. The two factions join forces to defeat a third party (a tsunami). Can you please explain what situation you are thinking about where the two factions do not team up? Citing from two or more works, please?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

We still haven't gotten around to fixing this? It's been in the shop since last year, which is bad enough, but the whole ambiguity of the name alone needs repairing.

I am the man who was slain by a ghoul, became a vampire, became a ghoul that killed my human self, became a soul in a sword.

From what I'm seeing, it looks like this issues surrounding this trope STARTED with the incredibly unclear and confusing name and delved into the sheer amount of things the trope is trying to cover at once while still functioning as a single trope. From reading the trope itself and the discussion, I'm seeing one major issue as to why this still hasn't been resolved.

There's still no complete consensus on what the trope is supposed to be about. Both the name and the description are unclear and I saw quite a few different interpretations over what we're supposed to be looking at.

• Two heroes are working toward the same goal independent of one another, cross paths, mistake each other for being in the way, fight, and then become allies after resolving the misunderstanding.
• Two heroes are unknowingly manipulated into fighting by an outside force. Though there are examples in the wicks of fights being a direct result of mind control or temporary switching of sides, which don't seem to entirely fit.
• Allies begin fighting due to a clash of goals, personality, ego, etc. but settle the difference soon afterward.

All of these have been cited as examples of this trope. The only real factor that lines up with all these examples is that a set of heroes unwillingly or unwittingly fight due to circumstance. This seems to me more like a super trope that could easily have each of these set ups be separated into their own pages with subsequent examples. Many might already have similar tropes lying around to use for the distribution.

This may be an unpopular suggestion, but instead of just trying to focus on a rename, I suggest we actually break this trope up into its subsequent subcategories, either make new pages or put the requisite examples into existing ones where appropriate and do away with this page altogether.

I agree with Setrin.

Why not make tropes for both proposed meanings?

• When two heroes meet, they will inevitably fight based on some ridiculous misunderstanding. Happens because of meta reasons: fans want to see a showdown of ultimate destiny. (This is a common meta trope for superhero comics). This also inevitably ends in heroes reconciling and working together against a common threat.
• Heroes are tricked into fighting by a manipulating third character, possibly a villain.

I think we may already have the third trope Setrin mentioned, as either A House Divided or We ARE Struggling Together.

online since 1993 | huge retrocomputing and TV nerd | lee4hmz.info (under construction) | heapershangout.com

Yeah, I think it's specifically A House Divided. The problem is, A House Divided is described a bit too narrowly.

I'm of the opinion that this trope is trying to cover too much ground. I like the suggestions upthread for spliting up the content into separate tropes.

I think a name like Meetup Throwdown or First Meeting Brawl might cover the overtrope, which is about two characters who meet up for the first time and then get in a fight.

I'm having no ideas for the other ones just yet.

This one was suffering from definition-creep. I restored the definition to its original intent: a third party manipulates two of his opponents into fighting each other. The examples probably need to be cleaned up, but the name is now not even a little bit ambiguous.

Marvel Misunderstanding might be a good item for YKTTW, as it frequently occurs without the third partner manipulator, making MM distinct from this. At best, a subtrope.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken