Constantine

John's not shown as being bisexual this season? Well, thankfully he's not known as Bisexual Man and his entire character revolves around his love of men and women.

Addition: stole that last part from the Batman V Superman thread when it got on this exact derail.

edited 7th Aug '14 6:38:31 PM by GethKnight

Michael James Shaw has been cast as Papa Midnite for Season One.

Really late reply: People don't like John being straight-washed because it's halfway homophobic, and also parallels casting someone who was a person of color into a Caucasian. It doesn't have to be an integral part of John's character—the fact that it was there and acknowledged was important for people who are also bisexual and want to see a well-rounded leading character as opposed to a stereotypical bit character.

Also, I'm just popping in to say that if Zatanna's ever written into the show, I'm going to try my damned hardest to audition for her.

edited 22nd Aug '14 9:16:01 PM by Leradny

John has been depicted as bisexual in... what? 1-2 issues? And those books were written by one of the least popular writers who ever laid hands on the franchise. It sits firmly on the fringes of the series' canon. They producers probably thought it wasn't something people would notice.

I think people are making a huge fuss out of something not nearly as big. It's not like Da Vinci's Demons, where they turned a historical figure who was 85% likely gay into a ladies man.

More on topic, I don't think NBC is the right network to pick this up. Constantine is a huge Urban Fantasy that requires a pretty big badget and above-average special effects to truly come to life. The actor looks like the part though.

edited 23rd Aug '14 2:00:34 PM by LogoP

Doctor Who had a shoestring budget and in the first series it managed to work out all right due to good actors and writers.

I was actually surprised by how engaging Matt Ryan's performance in the trailers. When I saw him on Criminal Minds, he had pretty much the same character as John, but got directed into a performance that was completely unremarkable.

Also, they could have rewritten John's bisexuality to be more relevant without taking anything that the fans didn't like, rather than completely erasing it and going the safe heteronormative route. Like, John deals with demons and witches and sent a girl to hell (at least in the trailer for the first pilot) but making the fact that he likes guys a little more prominent in a well-written way was too much?

Justice League Dark acknowledges his bisexuality. And that was after Milligan dropped out so that the series underwent a mysterious increase in quality.

Goyer's a piece of shit, no doubt about that. I've hated him ever since he made that shitty comment about She-Hulk only existing as a porn-star for the Hulk to have sex with.

What.

I just don't understand the people going "it's ok he's not bi in this, that's not important."

That's such a flawed and nonsensical argument.

If it's not important, why change it?

This was an aspect of the comic character. There would have been no harm whatsoever in porting it over into this adaptation. But instead, the creators apparently thought it was a big enough deal to change. It's not like you're straight unless you have an alternate sexual template applied over you. You're either straight or you're gay or you're bi or you're ace or you're any other of a myriad sexualities. If it wasn't important, if it was incidental to the character, it would have been kept. Because it would have been so minor nobody cared.

Instead, they went out of their way to change it. Goyer could easily have said something to the effect of "he's bi, but this season probably won't show him with any guys" but instead he declared Constantine was straight and maybe he'd become bi in twenty years.

So when people ask "who cares?" Well, the creators of this show apparently cared enough to change it.

Just because the producers thought it was important doesn't mean most people give a rats; doesn't mean it's central to the character for most fans. Especially if they had just not mentioned it, no one would have noticed.

edited 23rd Aug '14 12:29:46 PM by Anteres

Imagine there's a minor character in a mostly white show is black. Producers decide to change the character to white. Whenever someone complains that the minor character was of color in the comics, the producers go, "Oh but it wasn't like race was IMPORTANT to the character, wouldn't you rather have a main character be black?" And people aren't satisfied because there AREN'T any main characters of color and producers took out the only character who WAS.

The thing is, in almost 30 years of canon, John's bisexuality has been mentioned 2-3 times. The majority of fans don't know about it. And probably don't care either.

And, yeah, if a minor character who only appeared three times in the comics was changed from black to white, most people would have likely not noticed.

I have to say though, that the producers whole "maybe in 20 years" comment came off as smug and condescending.

Most people wouldn't notice... except for the people who ARE black/bisexual and liked even the brief smattering of representation. You're coming off as fairly condescending yourself, you know.

I think you're missing the point.

Let me say this: The reason there was an outrage over Goyer's previous fuck-up (e.i. straightwashing Leonardo Da Vinci, of all people) is because it is a historical fact that Da Vinci had gone through two sodomy trials, spent a large part of his life with his lover/apprentice and had no reported relationships with women.

His homosexuality/bisexuality is a well-known & important part of his character. Of a real life person, I might add. And Goyer chose to ignore it for... whatever reason.

In John's case, however, most people probably don't know about it. They haven't picked it up. Because it has been mentioned thrice in 30 years of comicbook existance. And, yeah, it's safe to assume that this ignorance has made most of them apathetic toward the whole thing.

edited 23rd Aug '14 1:18:59 PM by LogoP

If this wasn't in issue, then you're "but most people don't know or care" argument might have something approaching point.

Granted, your argument still fails to answer the question of "if no one cares, why bother changing it?"

Furthermore, just because he prefers women and doesn't have sex with men that often does not mean he isn't bi or that it's not important. There are plenty of bi people who have a preference for one gender or another. There are plenty who exclusively date one gender but are still sexually attracted to other genders. Let's do an experiment: go tell those people that their sexual identity isn't important and they should just come out as straight/gay. Record their reactions. Be thorough.

What you say is true but I don't see how it's relevant. Nobody here said that if a bi man prefers women means that he isn't bi. I certainly don't believe it.

Also, as to why the decided to change it...it's what I said, they know.though that most people don't know or care enough about it. Dick & inflammatory move, all things considered. As was Goyer's choice of words. Keeping John bisexual wouldn't have hurt nobody.

edited 23rd Aug '14 2:01:13 PM by LogoP

For me, it's more about how Goyer reacted the the question than whether or not Constantine's bisexuality is important to anything.

Logo P: Ah. I get what you're saying. It's just that the way you phrased things made it sound like you were an indirect supporter of Goyer's choice.

Yeah, my phrasing was really akward. Sorry 'bout that.

I don't actually support Goyer. As a matter of fact, I my faith in him was shaken from the way he handled Leonardo Da Vinci. And not just the man's sexuality.

True. A "yes" or "no" would have been enough. "Maybe in 20 years"? Seriously. That was smug & childish.

EDIT: What bugs me more, however, is that the can't show John smoking. What are they afraid of? That it's gonna corrupt America's youth and make them embrace tobacco?

edited 23rd Aug '14 3:04:00 PM by LogoP

The FCC is what they're afraid of.

So they can show John fihgting & killing Serial Killers, exorcising beings that are literaly demons from hell and being a blasphemous & womanizing loudmouth in general but smoking a cig is a taboo?

Imitable behavior.

Same reason you can't have people drinking in beer commercials. They can get around it, but the act itself is against the rules.

Never mind that John actually gets terminal lung cancer due to his smoking. And he had to make a literal Deal with the Devil to get rid of it. A more effective message of Smoking Is Bad you will not find.

Damn, this show should have been on cable.

EDIT: And violence isn't imitable?

John's still a heavy smoker. We just can't have a cigarette in his mouth while on the screen. IIRC, the pilot had an ashtray full of cigarette butts next to him.

Not supernatural violence. And really the whole FCC and censor standard are weird here. We can show Justin Bieber get shot several times on the air, but one tiny nip slip and there's fines and hearings and rioting.

edited 23rd Aug '14 3:38:42 PM by GethKnight

Welcome to American television, where you can show an eviserated corpse, but not a tit.