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Unclear Description: Cursed With Awesome get usage counts

I'm bringing this here because there is some question about whether or not it is objective. I happen to think that as written, it has elements of subjectivity, but that we can fix it to make it objective.

The discussion started on the "Pages that need the YMMV" thread.

To repeat what I said there:

The laconic is "Undesired quality is useful." If we were to redo the trope to focus on how characters are able to find In-Universe advantages to things that are generally considered undesirable (like having a curse placed on you), that would be objective.

At first I thought that is what this trope was, especially based on the name and how I sometimes see it used on other pages, but then once I read the excessively long description it does seem like the definition focuses on characters moaning about things that the reader might find awesome (like immortality) which isn't entirely objective.

Also, TropeDistinctions.A-C says that "Cursed with Awesome is when you have a relatively sucky power, but it gets you good advantages." This might also reflect the way it is being used at times.

However I would say that having a "relatively sucky power" isn't exactly the same thing as having an undesirable quality. Bit of a difference from being gain advantages from being cursed into a wolf by a witch and having a super power that isn't as cool as the other folks on your super hero team.

edited 16th Apr '14 5:34:18 AM by Catbert

 2 Willbyr, Thu, 5th Jun '14 5:50:31 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.
 3 razorrozar 7, Thu, 5th Jun '14 9:13:49 AM from South Carolina Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
The Unseen Academical
The Trope Distinction entry sounds more like it's referring to Heart Is an Awesome Power. I think I'd agree that the trope, in its laconic form at least, is YMMV; not everyone is going to agree that the power is awesome, or that it's worth the disadvantages that come with it.

tl;dr Support conversion to YMMV with a separate list of in-universe examples.
Stanley worked for a company in a big building, where he was Employee #427.
 4 m8e, Thu, 5th Jun '14 12:00:01 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
This should be made into a real trope. ie a curse or something similarly bad(or painted as bad) ending up having having a positive/useful side.

Like that norse example, cursed to die when a candle have burned up + blow out the candle = immortality.

edited 5th Jun '14 12:09:49 PM by m8e

Carpe by all means diem, but not all diem are worth carpe.
You might have to miss half of tomorrow to catch the whole today.
 5 razorrozar 7, Thu, 5th Jun '14 12:51:21 PM from South Carolina Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
The Unseen Academical
[up] Good idea, but I think Cursed with Awesome should remain as it is, and become a YMMV trope. The new trope could be called Cursed with Benefits, as a snowclone of Friends with Benefits.

(e) To clarify, Cursed with Awesome has been around for a while and it invokes a specific definition by now. I think making it refer to something entirely new and different would kind of break something. Also, as I was making this edit, it occurred to me - your example would fit neatly on the In-Universe list I proposed already, so maybe we're arguing the same side here.

edited 5th Jun '14 12:53:30 PM by razorrozar7

Stanley worked for a company in a big building, where he was Employee #427.
 6 m8e, Thu, 5th Jun '14 1:28:05 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
The trope isn't related to Friends with Benefits, so that title would just be a Bad Snowclone.

The title Cursed with Awesome is the direct opposite of Blessed with Suck, and it seems to be a waste to us it on an (unneeded) YMMV when it can be used on a trope that is the direct opposite of Blessed with Suck.

Making it a YMMV has also been down voted in the crowner.(Currently at -7)
Carpe by all means diem, but not all diem are worth carpe.
You might have to miss half of tomorrow to catch the whole today.
 7 Karjam P, Thu, 5th Jun '14 11:39:39 PM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
How would that be a Bad Snowclone?

As long as it explains clearly what the trope's about, then it's okay.

Removing the D from that proposed name, Curse With Benefits implies that your curse has benefits to it, which is exactly what the proposed new trope's about.

edited 5th Jun '14 11:40:37 PM by KarjamP

Ecce Homo Superior
[up]It's bad because it sounds like it's related to Friends with Benefits, even though it's completely unrelated.
(it's David Bowie)
 9 Karjam P, Fri, 6th Jun '14 6:30:02 AM from South Africa Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The imaginative Christian Asperger
[up]It sounds like you're thinking too hard on this.

Everything's Worse with Snowclones is a guideline, not a rule. The intent of this guideline is to discourage against snowclones because they tend to not explain what the trope's about (and we're keen on new trope titles being clear).

Just think of it this way: Pretend that you don't know that it's a snowclone. Does A Curse With Benefits (Yes, made another variation of the name in an attempt to make it more clearer) explain what the trope's about, then?

this title explains it perfectly, even though it's not related to Friends with Benefits.

edited 6th Jun '14 6:31:06 AM by KarjamP

 10 Obsidian Fire, Fri, 6th Jun '14 8:15:22 AM Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
It's a bad snowclone because most people know that the "with benefits" part of Friends with Benefits almost always means sex. And that's not at all what is meant by Cursed With Benefits.

So yes, it's a clever title. It's also not a good one because the trope that's it's copying is a well known trope that's known even outside TV Tropes.

 11 razorrozar 7, Fri, 6th Jun '14 8:18:23 AM from South Carolina Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
The Unseen Academical
[up] That's a good way of putting it. However, I still think "Awesome" is too much of a YMMV term to remain in a non-YMMV trope. What about Curse With An Upside? That might be too vague, but it's a suggestion.
Stanley worked for a company in a big building, where he was Employee #427.
Ecce Homo Superior
[up]That one's pretty good. Short and clear.
(it's David Bowie)
It seems like some people confused this with "Blessed with Suck"

Cursed with Awesome: A curse or other negative affliction turns out to have unexpected positive side-effects that mostly cancel out the bad.

Blessed with Suck: A seemingly positive change has negative side-effects that prevent the recipient from appreciating their new powers.

The page definitely needs some cleanup for these examples.

EDIT: I just removed most of the unfitting examples.

edited 6th Jun '14 4:31:04 PM by Zuxtron

 14 Obsidian Fire, Fri, 6th Jun '14 3:24:38 PM Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
Okay, the the Trope Distinction only makes the difference between Blessed with Suck and Cursed with Awesome more confusing because I, at least, thought they were the opposite.

Here's what's written on the Distiction page vs. the definitions on the trope pages.

Trope Distinctions.A-C

  • Blessed with Suck is when you have an awesome power, but it comes with tons of drawbacks.
  • Cursed with Awesome is when you have a relatively sucky power, but it gets you good advantages.

Blessed with Suck page

Blessed with Suck is: Generally, it's when a character is given a special ability that seems to cause nothing but trouble.

Blessed with Suck page says Cursed with Awesome is: when "a "curse" actually is cool and helps the character, even if they refuse to believe it and just want to be normal."

Cursed with Awesome page

Cursed with Awesome is: A character has some "terrible" curse placed on them (if they weren't born with it) that is actually pretty awesome.

Cursed with Awesome page says Blessed with Suck is: where the ability given is supposed to be good, but isn't.

Yeah, now I'm really confused.

edited 6th Jun '14 3:26:26 PM by ObsidianFire

 15 Willbyr, Fri, 6th Jun '14 3:28:22 PM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
[up] Yikes...that's some serious conflict.
My vote:

Blessed with Suck is when a character is given something that is intended as a benefit, but turns out to be terrible. "Here, have the ability to kill anything with a touch! What do you mean, you wanted to hug your loved ones without killing them?"

Cursed with Awesome is when a character is given something that is intended as a punishment or other detriment, but turns out to be pretty good. "As punishment for consigning innocent children to die so that you may live, you are now cursed with eternal life! [comes back a century later] What do you mean, the dating has been going great?"
 17 Obsidian Fire, Fri, 6th Jun '14 5:45:23 PM Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
[up]That is what I've always thought the definitions of those tropes are. Although the "Curse of Immortality" is a good example of how these could be YMMV tropes if not defined correctly.

The problem though is that these tropes don't just apply to "blessings" and "curses", but to powers of "neutral" origins like the Hulk's transformation ability (which could easily have both tropes apply to it). At which point they both go into YMMV territory as depending on the character/series/'verse any given power could be an "awesome" one or a "suck" one.

[up]

It's not YMMV. If the characters clearly enjoys their supposedly awful eternal life, then it's objectively a case of Cursed with Awesome.

Immortality only qualifies as Cursed with Awesome if the one who grants immortality explicitly states it's a curse, and the recipient ends up liking their eternal life. Since it has to be shown in-universe, then it's not YMMV.

 19 Obsidian Fire, Fri, 6th Jun '14 7:55:33 PM Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
[up]But that's not how Cursed with Awesome is used. Part of the "cursed" part is that whoever has the power views it as a curse as well. Also keep in mind that Cursed with Awesome in particular usually doesn't refer to actual curses. It usually refers to powers from a neutral source that would be cool/awesome usually, but for whatever reason are viewed as negatively affecting whoever has them.

Blessed with Suck doesn't help any as that seems to be when someone has a power that just isn't very useful for whatever reason. And the power usually isn't awesome, but sometimes it can be, it just comes with drawbacks.. (oh wait, what does that sound like?)

Also, several of the examples on the pages are about the exact same events, just phrased differently.

[up]

I think I understand better now. The problem comes from the fact that there are two completely different tropes being described by Cursed with Awesome:

1: A character has a cool power, but would rather not have it for some reason.

2: A character is afflicted with a curse or other negative condition, but it has positive side-effects that result in the "victim" enjoying their "curse".

I was also confusing Cursed with Awesome version 1 with Blessed with Suck.

A split might be in order.

edited 6th Jun '14 9:01:46 PM by Zuxtron

 21 Septimus Heap, Sat, 7th Jun '14 12:00:21 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
For me, Cursed with Awesome has always been "a curse or bad affection ends up having some good effects".

Everyone seems to agree on that. The only problem appears to be that Zuxton's #1 "A character has a cool power, but would rather not have it for some reason" doesn't really have a proper trope for it, and is shoveled under Cursed with Awesome because there's nowhere better. The Hulk is a good example; Bruce Banner doesn't want to be the Hulk, but most people think it's kinda awesome, but no one was trying to punish or hurt him in some way. It's not really a curse in the literal sense.
 23 m8e, Sat, 7th Jun '14 11:03:43 AM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
Eh, I Just Want to Be Normal?

Laconic: This character thinks that whatever makes him different is a curse.

edited 7th Jun '14 11:04:47 AM by m8e

Carpe by all means diem, but not all diem are worth carpe.
You might have to miss half of tomorrow to catch the whole today.
 24 Willbyr, Mon, 7th Jul '14 6:18:53 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Re-clocking.
 25 Madrugada, Mon, 7th Jul '14 9:00:18 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I don't really think the The Hulk counts as Cursed with Awesome. The people who think it's cool are only the ones who have never given any thought to what hulking out involuntarily whenever you get upset must be like. I mean, do any of the other supers he's worked with think it's cool or awesome? Useful, maybe, and they may be impressed with things he's done while hulked out, but has anyone who isn't insane ever said, "Damn, Banner, you're so lucky to be able to do that. I wish I could?"

Which leads to me to what I was thinking may be the solution to the problem: make it In Universe Only; that is, other characters must express that they think it's a great attribute to have, or one they wish they had. Fans or audiences thinking it's cool don't count. That makes it objective: can you point to a part of the work where another character indicates that they think it's pretty cool (or awesome) to have that curse/power/condition/ability?

edited 7th Jul '14 9:05:40 AM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
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