Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Vasquez was more at odds with one of the people who worked with him on Invader Zim than he was on Nickelodeon. Nick cancelled the program because the ratings weren't enough to match the huge budget of the show (though they did screw around with the airing).
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Yup, Vasquez got into many arguments with Nick over his show. He got in a few Take That! stuff towards Nick in such as a character named Nick in the show who had a ''Happy Probe'' forcibly implanted into his brain, the infamous Bloody Gir image, and the Halloween Episode.
edited 5th Feb '16 8:26:58 PM by Bleddyn
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
I know he got into arguments with them, but there was another person that worked on the show with Vasquez that he butted heads with more than the Nick producers.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Well he definitely did not like them that was for sure. I am honestly not sure what people at Nick were expecting from the guy who gave us Johnny The Homicidal Maniac.
Not an evil Thievul
That's not even getting into what John K's situation at Nick was...
"Lucian, don’t be afraid, we’ll make it through this."
Sometimes creator freedom gives you Avatar: The Last Airbender, sometimes it gives you Breadwinners or (from CN) Camp Lazlo (sorry if you liked either of those...I found them to be utter tripe).
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You shouldn't really compare Avatar The Last Airbender to Breadwinners. Remember, these where creator driven, meaning that Bryan and Michael wanted to make action oriented show, while Steve and Gary wanted to make a wacky comedy show.
Nothing where stoping them, and I don't see what wrong with that...
Also what's wrong with Camp Lazo? I enjoyed it, even more then Rockos Modern Life
get shot
edited 6th Feb '16 12:36:13 AM by Paint.
Snow Ghost
It's not suppose to be a comparison.
It is just the positives and negatives of having a creator driven show, regardless of genre.
Which one is the negative?
edited 6th Feb '16 1:00:24 AM by randomness4
YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
Of course some creators AREN'T that passionate.
edited 6th Feb '16 1:09:49 AM by superboy313
Snow Ghost
What exactly is that referring to?
YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
756: John K. missed all his deadlines and was generally unpleasant to most of the people he worked with. What's the story there?
757: Using that as a comparison doesn't make a good case for creator-driven toons.
758: Camp Lazlo wasn't Rocko, but then again, what is?
edited 6th Feb '16 8:31:39 AM by Aldo930
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
All I meant was creator-driven depends entirely on the creators and their individual vision. There are animators who are excellent technicians, excellent artists, who simply aren't good at creating their own series ideas. They might be great with guidance, but on their own, they're lacking. You don't find a lot of people who, especially when their visual work has impressed some network bigwig and their given free reign to do what they want, are going to admit "I'm great visually, I'm great at visual gags, but I suck at making a cohesive product out of this. I need to recruit some people to do the stuff I'm not good at."
John K is well known in the animation industry, among those who don't blindly worship him, as being a brilliant animator who is desperately hard to work with if you aren't willing to completely bend to his will.
What I meant by my earlier comparison is that sometimes with creator-driven work, you'll get great stuff that ticks off pretty much every box for excellence (Avatar), and sometimes you get stuff that just sucks. That's regardless of genre, even though my choice for excellence was an action show and my choice for drek was two comedies. I was not trying to say actioners are better than comedies, or trying to directly compare those shows.
Stuff that's not creator-driven is more likely to hit the middle of the road, with occasional forays into excellence and drek (and just "meh" too). With creator-driven stuff, you're more likely to have highs and lows (though lately, you've had a lot of "meh," at least in my opinion).
edited 6th Feb '16 12:18:47 PM by Robbery
Still just awesome like that
Your personal hatred of the Avatar shows does not reflect on their quality whatsoever. Like them or not, both series have pretty high acclaim from both critics and fans alike. Even Roger Ebert discussed at one point his affinity for the show (I think he may have mentioned it in his review of the movie).
Just because something is not to your tastes or interests, that does not make it automatically bad. I wish more people understood this.
Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Aldo hates Avatar?
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Obviously I can't really speak for Aldo, but I think he's mentioned that he hasn't seen any contemporary cartoons, Avatar included. I don't think he hates it; I think he hasn't seen it.
Roger Ebert checked out the animated Avatar: The Airbender when the live action version came out; he compared it favorably to the works of Hayao Miyazaki, saying as well that the live action version far from did it justice. Rather good of him to make the effort to check out the original.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
That was a contemporary of mine and I honestly do not get what anyone sees in that show. (I haven't seen the sequel and probably never will, but I do know that's pretty divisive, so there you are.)
Like, somehow Nicktoons became respectable by doing this bland animesque cliche-ridden crap?... Am I the only one who sees this? I'm not going to say "the emperor has no clothes" because I'm pretty sure people aren't pretending to like the show, but seriously, the best?
(I should mention that outside of his work for Toei and Nippon Animation, Miyazaki's work does not pass well with me.)
edited 6th Feb '16 7:40:59 PM by Aldo930
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
Everything is clichéd.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Still just awesome like that
Ignoring the rest of that since I'm too tired and don't have the energy to argue about it coherently (seriously kids never get jobs, specifically never get jobs in restaurants), I'm curious as to why you feel that way about Miyazaki's work.
edited 6th Feb '16 7:46:03 PM by Odd1
Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Still just awesome like that
@adric: everything is clicheeeeee
everything's been done onyour tv screen
everything is clicheeeeeee
when you're a media fiend
Not an evil Thievul
I've diagnosed Aldo with a serious case of Hype Backlash. He hasn't seen the show, thinks it's over-hyped, and believes that there are better shows. Classic signs of this.
"Lucian, don’t be afraid, we’ll make it through this."
Still just awesome like that
I can understand that, I used to be the same way with a lot of things (and still am at times to some extent). However, once the opinion-blasting dies down from people, I tend to actually check stuff out. And, usually, I end up surprised (one way or another).
Insert witty 'n clever quip here.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
So clearly Avatar is so good no one could hate it?
And the reason I don't like, or more precisely, don't care for Miyazaki's work is that much of it is just kind of... Eh. It doesn't move me in the same way an old Toei film from the 60s does.
His work in animation for Toei and Nippon Animation, though, is wonderful... See the Toei Puss In Boots if you don't believe me.
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
belongs to the hurricane
It's fine to dislike Avatar (the show IS pretty archetypal in a lot of ways), but there are some legitimately well-done things about it, like its animation and fight coreography. I really don't care about its sequel series either, but I think it's good that Nickelodeon allowed it to be made.
Professional Moldy Fig/Curmudgeon
Even the fact that they made the movie a couple of years after the show ended was sign enough of how Nick had faith in the franchise...
"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."
From what I've heard, the cartoonists have a great time at the program; saying that they're having a blast making their shorts and are given full creative freedom. If only Jhonen Vasquez had that...
On the bad side, it gave us Breadwinners.
edited 6th Feb '16 3:23:54 PM by superboy313