Gotham

And once more it seems like a murderer is more likely to have the sympathy of the audience than an adulterer.

I for one am not to decide if Gordon will forgive or not. It will be his choice and his alone. And he did insist on sending her away a couple of times earlier, that plus Zsasy, we have to cut her some slack for reacting like she did.

You're a more forgiving man than me I suppose.

Or most people here, cause I don't expect Barbara to get off that easy at all.

I'm surprised by how much more badass this version of Zsasz is compared to his Arkham incarnation.

edited 21st Nov '14 8:00:25 PM by FOFD

All of Batman's villains are pretty scary folks when not faced with someone like Batman.

..It's sort of cathartic when you're playing a Batman game, and you see all of these horrifying experiments, mutants, and criminals... only to remember that "you" are the scariest thing in Gotham.

Speaking of which, I can't wait to see Bullock/Gordon/Falcone shit themselves when Batman finally shows up.

If they reference that table scene from Year One I will be a happy camper. Assuming Falcone and Maroni live that long.

edited 21st Nov '14 8:16:12 PM by FOFD

Yeah, I've been playing Arkham City recently, and there's something wildly entertaining about stalking criminals from the shadow and the heights above them and watching them freak out as they and their buddies are picked off one-by-one.

What murderer are you referencing?

@Julep

You know why that is? Because The Penguin—or whichever other villain you were thinking of—is a villain. We are supposed to dislike him. So when he does terrible things we accept it because that is his role in the story—to do terrible things.

Barbara is being billed as the Love Interest. We are supposed to want her to stay with Gordon. So when she does something like this, it makes us hate her guts.

And we don't have to cut her anything. He sent her away to protect her. She came back, like the imbecile she is. Then she got freaked out when her actions saw her rub noses with Zsasz (and just what did she think was going to happen? That the mob were going to be nice people?). She only has her own idiocy to blame.

edited 21st Nov '14 11:07:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Nobody freaks out when things are going according to plan, even if the plan is horrifying. So if a villain goes and shanks someone, or poisons a room full of his own henchmen, nobody panics. But when a love interest goes and cheats on the main character with her ex... well then, everyone loses their minds!

Which is as it should be.

The Arkham series sometimes does that with villain (they make Harley being one-punched a running thing, for instance), though Zsasz is an Adaptational Badass in this series from his comics incarnation as well.

I guess it comes part and parcel with being adapted as a mercenary/hitman - it happens a bit in Arrow as well (I think Batman Begins did the same thing with him, but barely referred to him by name anyway).

@Ambar:

Aren't we watching a show where the colleague of the hero, Bullock, got furious because Gordon refused to execute a criminal on the mob's orders ? Oh, and Bullock was the one responsible for dragging Gordon into this mess too. Yet I don't see many people constantly reminding the thread how corrupt Harvey is, even if it implies some nasty things in his past in order to become pals with Fish, for example.

Bullock's development involves him becoming a decent person, which he apparently used to be before Gotham broke him.

In a city full of corrupt cops where the Mob basically owns the place, what Harvey didn't didn't feel out of place, especially since he's been improving as a character since the first episode. And he's managed to make himself likable through his various traits, quirks, and actions.

Barbara, on the other hand, has done little to nothing to make herself a likable character and has done nothing to improve as a character since we first saw her - to the contrary, she's gotten worse, with no signs of improvement on the horizon to go along with what everyone perceives to be a long and tedious role for her. It's a very bad combination.

It's also worth noting that this is a work of fiction, where presentation is a very important thing - this isn't about adultery being worse than murder, it's about the character who is committing adultery being an aggravating annoyance who's done little if anything thus far to make us like her vs characters who while we're fully aware they're terrible people are actually entertaining to watch even as we know they're being terrible people.

Yet no one was blaming him prior to his development. "Oh, he is corrupt, he'll get better".

No one seems to hope for Barbara to redeem herself. She cheated, and it cannot be forgiven. Killing people on the mob's orders is alright, you can get better but cheating on your boyfriend ? HOW DARE YOU !

You know, if Gordon had accepted to be the same kind of cop than Bullock is, then Barbara would never have had to fear for her life (remember that Fish's men broke into her apartment and threatened to rape her - and she had nothing to do with that). Gordon tells her nothing about his work even when she asks, but it does not protect her one bit. He is insanely secretive, and all she is supposed to do is stay at home while fearing for her life without expecting to understand a single thing because it could somehow endanger her even more. Yeah right, great life she must have.

Everyone seems to be actually asking her to be a Satellite Character to Gordon, borderline Stay in the Kitchen. She isn't supposed to know anything or to do anything, just to be there whenever Gordon needs it, and be somewhere else when she is not needed. Very handy. Oh, but wait, she will probably become much deeper after becoming Batgirl's mom, right ?

edited 22nd Nov '14 8:21:44 AM by Julep

At the end of the day, Barbara Keen needs to improve herself as a character in some way to develop from all the idiotic moves she's made in order for her Scrappy status to vanish. We still have half the season left, so she has time.

Throwing off a scrappy rep is really hard.

The audience is watching you, and the next mistake might undo any good will you earned, the writers might not realize you are a scrappy and do more with you than people like, or worse, do realize you are a scrappy and make things worse in the attempt to make things better.

Well yeah, especially I guess when you consider a character who was given a choice between being a Flat Satellite Character, or instantly becoming The Scrappy in everyone's minds.

Is it that hard to think about what Barbara Keen's life was ? Sure, it is not shown 24/7 on-screen, but there is far enough to piece things together.

How much do you need to established the character?

I don't need to establish the characters more than they already are, I just expect some fair treatment from the fandom when it comes to judging ones actions. Just replay all Barbara/Gordon scenes from the season, and see how awesome a boyfriend Gordon is. Unless you think that "I can't tell you anything", "That would put you in danger" and "You need to get away for some time" are common sentences heard in healthy couples, she is far from being the only one responsible of what his happening.

And that is without talking about how Barbara could be a bit lost right now and, Montoya exploiting this in her own interest.

I think the difference between Bullock and Barbara is that Bullock needs to grow as a person, while Barbara needs to improve as a character.

One is in the process of being done through the writing, the other requires the writers to begin changing the way they write.

Barbara has some tradition of bad choices, of not being prepared for the life Jim leads. I recall one Legends Of The Dark Knight arc wherein thugs from the Roman's sister came from Chicago seeking something they thought Jim had, and held the family hostage, with the exception of (in that continuity, adopted niece) Babs, who turned out to have what they wanted. Jim urged his wife not to speak at all, but in a panic, she revealed that Babs had what they wanted. As Jim had warned her, the thugs now had no need to keep them alive, cue Bat-rescue later on.

Point is, I think they may be taking their cues from scenes like these in the books, and her future as a wife who ultimately finds she can't stay married to him. Problem is, they seem to be Flanderizing the stereotypical (in fiction) cop's wife before she's even that far in.

I have a fiction fallback for choices made in dumbness and effecting no change. Long story short, The Beverly Hillbillies get wooed by another banker, who tells them Drysdale's a crook (which he probably was, but not in the way this guy meant). So the Clampett clan demands to see all the money they have in Drysdale's bank, and he responds how it isn't all there physically, for a variety of valid financial reasons, all of which fly over their heads and fail to impress them, thinking Drysdale spent it all. After more stealthy digs and blatant lies, the other banker gets their account—only for them to now ask to physically see their money, and getting the exact same response. They decide to return to Drysdale, the more frugal of the two crooks.

That is how I see Barbara's choice, and why it irks me. This is not a comedy, but her way of doing things is almost comedic.

Not going to judge Barbara on cheating until I see the episode but I will judge her for being Too Dumb to Live when she came back after Gordon sent her away. As someone said,did she expect the mob to be nice? Although to be fair Falcone and Szasz are Affably Evil and Faux Affably Evil respectively. And as someone else said she dumps Jim for shutting her out of his job then goes back to her old girlfriend who has exactly the same job? And note didn't Gordon only start shutting her out after she showed she couldn't keep secret something he told her?

edited 22nd Nov '14 3:11:39 PM by tricksterson

Seeing as she's never met the mob, and knows them only on reputation, she shouldn't even be expecting Falcone to be Affably Evil. She should be expecting him to be The Dreaded, seeing as that is how everybody else in the city reacts to him.

@Julep

Nothing you've just said justifies Barbara's own bad choices. If she really thinks Jim is as lousy a boyfriend as you are portraying him to be, then the reasonable thing for her to do is to break up with him. Not say she needs a little space and then cheat on him. If Barbara decided that she could not take it and wanted out of his life period, that would be fine. That is not what she did though, and her behaviour is inexcusable.

I will accept a lot of things from a Love Interest in a show. I will not accept betrayal. As of the last episode Barbara proved that she has no business being Gordon's girlfriend. If the writers wanted to do something else with her, that would be fine. Thing is, that's not going to happen. I'm 99.9 percent positive that she's going to go back to being Gordon's girlfriend, after doing the one thing you cannot do in a relationship.

And before somebody starts trying to say that we wouldn't react this way if it were a guy cheating, yes I would. Back in Season 1 of Justified Raylan (the hero) cheated on his then-girlfriend, Ava, with his ex-wife, Winona. Now, did this make me instantly hate Raylan? No, but that's because he possesses an actual personality, and Barbara does not. But did it make me want the Raylan/Ava relationship to be over? You better believe it. He betrayed her, and accordingly, he had no business being in a relationship with her.

That's the point I'm at with Barbara. I don't want her dead (though that wouldn't make me sad). I want her to break up with Jim and stay away, because she is a lousy girlfriend. The trouble is that, assuming the show is following continuity, that isn't going to happen. Which means that for the foreseeable future I'll be stuck watching Jim kiss up and apologize to somebody he should not be in a relationship with in the first place.

PS—Of course being Batgirl's mother won't improve her. I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make there. I can't speak for anybody else, but I can safely say that no, I don't want her to be a satellite character. Guess what though—that's what she already is. Cheating with Montoya isn't character development. Going to Falcone wasn't character development. Those are things that the writers had her do for no other reason than their effect on Gordon. Taking them away wouldn't make her anymore of a satellite character than she already is. You know what taking them away would do? It would make her more likable.

edited 22nd Nov '14 7:11:15 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

If Gordon had accepted being the same kind of cop as Bullock, he wouldn't be James Gordon.

Plus, then Barbara would still probably leave him for not being the kind of man she thought he was, and he'd be in an even worse state than he is right now because the MCU would actually have a crime to charge him for rather than just chasing around a false lead.

For all your talk about people being unfair to Barbara, Julep, I can't help but feel that you're sitting at the other extreme where you're bending over backwards to defend her, especially when you think that James Gordon being a corrupt cop would in any way improve the current situation.

edited 22nd Nov '14 8:32:59 PM by TheSpaceJawa

But that's the problem here: you only see her as a Love Interest. You only see her as Jim's Satellite Character. Any reaction she may have is only judged from Jim's point of view, not her own. If Jim was the most perfect boyfriend there ever was, then maybe I would have less sympathy for her, but in this case, the Double Standard is strong since she is constantly kept in the dark and expected to be here or not to be here whenever Jim needs it.

That's what using the words betrayal or inexcusable is just far too extreme from where I stand. "Inexcusable" is the Penguin murdering the two guys that were helping her, or Mooney ordering the execution of Falcone's girl. Here, it is much, much less than that. Especially since as a character, if nothing happened between Jim and her because of how faithful and in love she was, except one hostage situation once in a while, she would become the sexist archetype of a badly-written Love Interest. Life is not black and white, it is a major theme of this show, yet this one thing seems to be irredeemable.

As for the Batgirl's mom, my point was to underline that for some people she may (perhaps) redeem herself by becoming a Satellite Character to another hero later in the show. Right now she isn't Barbara Keen, she is Gordon's girlfriend. In the future, she will be Barbara's mom.

I don't want to excuse her. I just want her to stop being considered as worse than The Killing Joke's Joker because she cheated on a boyfriend that consistently pushed her away, dictated her life and refused to share anything meaningful with her. No, it is not supposed to make her sympathetic. No, it is not supposed to make her beyond redemption either. Life is not always Star-Crossed Lovers and eternal happiness when it comes to couples.

My point is simply that when you put yourself in Barbara's shoes, then Gordon is far from being an outstanding boyfriend. Sure, it is never how the show is working, but it does not require extensive mental gymnastics.

edited 23rd Nov '14 4:37:22 AM by Julep

Personally, her moral standing, or that of any fiction character, matters far less than are they a good character.

Barbara is not a good character. She is a Satellite Love Interest and not a well written one. She exists to just give the main character conflict in his home life with little evidence of why they are together at all. Thus the writers need to improve the character or remove her.

Penguin has done much worse but that's his role and he is written far more entertaininly than... well most people in this show, and that's not a knock on the show.

Barbara, Penguin, Killing Joke Joker are all tools for entertainment, that's all. No one is condemning anyone's real behaviour or saying unfaithfulness is worse than murder in real life. It's just Barbara is a poorly written tool.

edited 23rd Nov '14 6:27:11 AM by Anteres