Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
United Earth
Let me tell you, folks, the ICC is rigged. The US know it. Israel knows it. And, believe me, the whole world knows it.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Always in favour of the "other side", yeah?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I can see one of those being a potential problem. Namely, an EU coalition would probably have to involve one of the three big European military powers, i.e Germany, France or Great Britain. France was Israel's primary supplier until the Us stepped in, so there would most likely be questions about their objectivity. Great Britain likewise has diplomatic ties with the Israeli state, and having Germany there would basically be diplomatic suicide.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
(Avatar by Coffee)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thing is, whoever you want to put in there, one side is bound to distrust — especially if the other side trusts them.
Clearly the answer is to stuff the task force with Danes and Norwegians. There's no way this could possibly backfire.
Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
United Earth
They'll be called antisemites or racists by assholes of both sides.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
How about a multinational force consisting of Brazilian and Chinese troops?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Neither of them have the ability to project forces to the area or manage any sort of issue or crisis that may happen.
Plus given China's military ties to Iran I've got doubts about their impartiality.
edited 21st Oct '16 3:18:25 PM by LeGarcon
Oh really when?
The law in the night
We already had enough problems in Haiti, and we're on an austerity and cost cutting drive, so no chance in hell.
(Avatar by Coffee)
The Chinese would love the opportunity, though — it gives them prestige and stuff. Especially if it'll work.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Nah, they wouldn't be stupid enough to go for it though. They know they can't stretch themselves that far.
They know they're a paper tiger deep down.
Oh really when?
The law in the night
Given the history the Chinese have with dealing with conflicted areas, I think they'd never try to simply on the account that they can't get away with disrespecting the human rights of the people they are trying to pacify this time.
It is nice and dandy when they send "disruptive" elements in the middle of who the fuck knows in China to organ harvesting or forced labor camps but when the entire world is watching they can't afford to act like they are still in China.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Lets just wait until we would meet some aliens and let them do it. I think the klingons would be impartial enough
V
@ Garcon:
...and with the Israelis.
edited 21st Oct '16 11:21:45 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
China prefers to be hands-off regarding the internal matters of states, unless they threaten their interests significantly (Sudan civil war threatening their oil operations for example). Otherwise it's just about the money.
edited 22nd Oct '16 4:04:26 AM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Isn't that true for most countries though? Individual citizen might care about human right violations but governments tend to stay out of each other business
V
In part because, not that it does violate the other country's Sovereignty, but also that no Nation has clean hands when it comes to Human Rights.
edited 22nd Oct '16 9:51:11 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
(Avatar by Coffee)
Palestinians who attended Jewish settlement event arrested by their own police (WashPost)
The Wanderer
I'm out of my allotted free articles for this month.
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
United Earth
I'd just like to point out that most international borders are armnistice lines. Classically, they tend to coincide with geographical barriers, for obvious reasons, which, coincidentally, tends to make them defensible. There's seldom such a thing as defensibe borders in contemporary warfare, though. So when Israel be satisfied? It's creeping outward every day, it takes and it takes... isn't this enough?
edited 23rd Oct '16 5:26:36 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Interesting question, to answer it, we would need to understand what make Israel tick:
it's probably not going to surprise people that Israel is a country that is driven by paranoia, but it's the rest of the world, not the Palestinians or even the Arabs, that are the Israelis main cause of concern. You see, Israelis believe in Realpolitik, we saw how in WW 2, the western powers abandoned their weaker allies for peace with the Nazis and we realized that if we want to truly be independent we can't rely on the protection and promises of others. That's probably one of the reasons we developed nukes, since, as long as we can start Armageddon, our destruction is never in anybody best interests.
How all this relate to the Palestinian problem? Well, Israelis also believe that Humans Are Bastards and therefore most Israelis can't bring themselves to believe that people are truly concern about the plight of the Palestinians. Instead, we convince ourselves that westerns pro-Palestinians are actually driven by all kinds of ulterior motives which are not necessarily in our best interests (Hence the constant accusations of anti-Semitism)
Basically, I believe, Israel is more concerned of outside attempts to solve the conflict than the conflict itself and therefore would resist all such attempts. As long as Israel would feel pressured to return to the negotiation table it would refuse to do so.
edited 23rd Oct '16 9:05:56 AM by nnokwoodeye1
United Earth
That's heartbreakingly obnoxious.
On the other hand, it seems like the Palestinians are a living demonstration of that notion... to an extent; they'd be a lot worse off without the world's aid, support and charity, and the allies they have (or had) among their neighbors. But if said allies and helpers are the very reason Israeli are so hateful about this... Truth, as usual, resists simplicity.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The law in the night
To add salt to injury, the anti-ziomism movement got a lot of anti-semites seeking a more politically acceptable venue to justify their bigotry.
Inter arma enim silent leges
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
The TL;DR version: Israel keeps perpetuating some/all of the very problems it's trying to solve/fight against.
edited 23rd Oct '16 2:03:29 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.