Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
A procrastination in of itself
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Is there a point to that vid?
United Earth
Several, in fact. But the points that stick out the most:
- Where's the evidence that there were rockets, materials, or combatants in the civilian bombed buildings?
- What's the point of "sufficient advance warning" (which is reported to not always be so) if you don't let people know where it's safe to go next? What's the point of moving from one neighborhood to the next if you're going to get told to do it again, and again? Especially if you've left all of your stuff behind, blown to splinters.
- Are any of you Israeli tropers getting a scholarship for the time you spend here giving us explanations? Are you volounteers following guidelines, a program, a manual, etc.?
edited 26th Jul '14 6:42:41 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
1) Israel releases video's of stuff Soldiers find inside houses and tunnels all the time - look the idf-desk youtube user page for examples.
https://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk
the evidence of places that have already BEEN struck are kinda harder to provide, given that the building isn't there anymore.
2) Where people go after being warned is NOT Israel's concern. what matters is they don't stay where the attack is going to take place. no one in Gaza cares about where Israeli families who's houses get damaged in rocket attacks have to go.
3) I can't speak for everyone, but I'm doing it on my own time, and on my own dime. and without ANYONE asking, or even knowing I'm doing this.
Though i AM certain no one would be willing to pay me, or anyone, for going on a site like this one (dedicated to fictional tropes) and champion Israel's cause here of all places.
edited 26th Jul '14 6:52:26 AM by bladeofdarkness
(Avatar by Coffee)
I don't have the brainspace to answer the two first questions right now, but no, I'm not getting anything for talking to you guys. That's the IDF Spokesperson Unit's jobnote .
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
A procrastination in of itself
- someone linked a bit back to evidence of Hanas storing weapons in UN schools, not to mention that some of the strikes will be aimed not at the buildings themselves but at tunnels underneath them.
- Thats a fair point, and one I agree with.
- Youll have to wait for the Israeli troopers to answer that one.
I still don't get why you linked to a Russia Today clip that starts out talking about the Stand Your Ground laws in the US.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
Because it moves on very quickly to Gaza and dwells on it a long while and wait, that's what RT stands for? Oh, Putin, you Magnificent Bastard, I see what you did there!
edited 26th Jul '14 7:02:33 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Party Crasher
Not to mention that this thread isn't exactly the plase to "champion Israel's (or anyone elses) cause." Like, at all.
edited 26th Jul '14 7:26:29 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
there seems to be a chance the current 12 hour ceasefire might get extended by another 12 hours.
no website to attach, just stuff on the news.
Edit : 4 hours, not 12.
edited 26th Jul '14 8:36:24 AM by bladeofdarkness
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
It does appear to have actually held this time. Good stuff!
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
because both sides have an interest in preserving it for now.
Israel already approved of another 4 hours. we'll see if Hamas does too.
EDIT : ___________________________________________________________
I just found out an interesting link.
I admit upfront that I have NO IDEA about almost ANYTHING regarding where this comes from, but I'm posting it here because I think it might be genuine.
the first link is a long list of the names of every single recorded Palestinian death between 08.07 and 25.07, as well as their Age and location of where they died. in all, its over 740 names.
http://www.imemc.org/article/68429
the second link is a Google Doc, composting the list, and adding another factor - Gender (going by name).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mM2B0oIdsk06F98p16netyeDQRKZEdUmxxoDIUEa2TA/edit#gid=0
I admit upfront. I don't know anything at all about who created this, or why. BUT, if these numbers are correct, the total percentage of women killed is only 19% of the total casualties. it should also be noted that 43% of Gaza's population is under the age of 14.
and by far, the biggest group of casualties (54% of total, and 67% of all males) were males between the age of 16-35 (I.E, males of military age). - I should note, the link keeps being updated, so the numbers change.
mind you, it doesn't mean everyone in that group was a combatant, but it does raise a few eyebrows.
Edit 2:
Well, that 4 hour ceasefire sure didn't last long. Hamas just declared they refuse to extend it, and started firing again.
edited 26th Jul '14 11:40:05 AM by bladeofdarkness
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'm being payed by the Global Zionist Organisation to undermine the Palestinian Cause and destroy the entire Muslim World from within.
edited 26th Jul '14 11:42:29 AM by Tyler
Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
A procrastination in of itself
Would they be willing to accept applicants? I'm short on cash and have decent experience parroting mindless positions that I don't believe in from my time working at Labour Party Conference.
Party Crasher
No eyebrows raised here.
All I see is an attempt to justify the disproportionate civilian casualties via presenting extremely dubious sources and jumping into the conlcusion that they dead are actually terrorists. Because obviously most 16-year-olds in Gaza are footsoldiers of Hamas.
edited 26th Jul '14 11:48:12 AM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
firstly, I flat out admitted that i don't know anything about the source.
that said, what is a "proportionate" civilian casualties rating ?
Not bothering to look for the links again, but 19% is pretty high compared to Afghanistan, which had less than 10% women casualties.
edited 26th Jul '14 11:54:53 AM by Uchuujinsan
Pour y voir clair, il suffit souvent de changer la direction de son regard www.xkcd.com/386/
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
Hams broke the ceasefire, but the BBC says that was because they wanted a total end to the fighting, not a mere truce.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Party Crasher
The fact that you admitted that you know next to nothing about the source(s), while admirable note , is underminded by the fact that you used these very sources to seriously imply that civilian casualties aren't that high and most of the dead are terrorists. Making it seem like Weasel Words.
Well, more BS from Hamas. Want to put an end to fighting, reject truce proposals. Epic logic.
edited 26th Jul '14 1:02:38 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Part of the Problem
Well they are looking for a true end to the fighting, which in their minds means the total annihilation of Israel and its citizens.
@Silas - Except the UN puts more pressure to bear, on balance, on the other nations. The UNCHR focuses on Israel because the other nations already get more focus. Or are you just complaining that Israel gets criticized at all? Because if so, I'm sorry, but even if Israel doesn't act as badly as the others (and it doesn't, by a long shot) doesn't mean it doesn't deserve the mild (and it really is mild, another reason why the other nations don't recieve as much from that particular department than Israel does) criticism it does recieve.
United Earth
You are aware that there's a nuance between "you're being given a discount on your university fees for spending time online defending your homeland's government's policies in the here and now" and "you are being paid by an Omniscient Council of Vagueness to undermine La Résistance and Take Over the World". One is public fact, the other is so embedded in Narrativium its overlaps with reality would be coincidental.
Of course, there's no point in me asking directly, since the propagandists are told not to admit it. I for one wouldn't mind arguing with a mini-PR-agent, that's fun and all, but it's unsporting if they don't declare themselves.
edited 26th Jul '14 1:29:11 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
HGW XX/7
Go to the comment section of any Western story about Russia if you really want to "debate" with the web brigades.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
United Earth
They're unprofessional about it?
HGW XX/7
No, they're very professional. xkcd explains it here, in the context of the 2010 US election. What Russia does is exactly the same - find enough English speakers who need cash, and pay them to create an impression of consensus on Western news sites. Combine with Russia Today toeing the Kremlin's line and you've got the guts of Moscow Centre's current PSYOPs in the West. And no, they aren't fun to debate with - if they stick around at all beyond posting the first comment and then trying to upvote it endlessly. Cardboard cut-out responses aren't fun. The most you can hope for is to try and expose them as a paid actor to the group.
Not to say the West doesn't do the same - they absolutely do. But Russians are the most notable on Western sites, due to the late unpleasantness in the Ukraine.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Well, Handle, if you're sure the propagandist(s) have been told not to reveal that fact and won't reveal that fact, you have two options:
- Assume every pro-Israel person in this thread is a propagandist and ignore what they're saying.
- Assume good faith.
@Cyran
Well, here
is an example of the "quiet for quiet" offer. Not directly by Bibi, but still...
I don't know what was published outside of Israel, but I remember hearing that the army estimates that the kidnapping wasn't a direct order from above, but was inspired by the "commander's spirit" and stuff like that. And with 2 Hamas operatives going off the radar shortly before the kidnapping happened, it's kinda hard for me to blame Bibi for blaming Hamas.
As for the motives for "Brother's Keeper", while I won't be surprised if undermining the unity government was part of it, just hearing gunshots is not enough the rule out the possibility that the teens were alive. For all they knew, the kidnappers might have only shot one of the teens, or even shot in the air.
edited 26th Jul '14 5:25:37 AM by cag