47 Ronin: Keanu Reeves goes samurai

I know what it means. In the context of the story, it makes sense:

"The Shogunate had a quandary: the ronin had violated a direct order from the Shogun by avenging their master, yet some said they had acted according to Bushido by avenging their master."

They could talk about Bushido and other stuff either through the 47 Ronin themselves or through other characters.

edited 3rd Nov '13 5:00:46 PM by Quag15

So we have some devils advocates? Okay, Japanese discriminating against half breeds, the possibility of it happening and why it should not be portrayed if it did?

Did it happen in 47 Ronin is the question to be asking though? The basic story, shogun/daimo commits suicide out of dishonor. His now master lacking Samurai soldiers go after the ones responsible for the dishonor, kill them, then all commit suicide themselves.

Now, given this information, can you see why someone might be a little annoyed with a slavery/halfbreed plot taking center stage? If you want to tell your halfbreed story it be better off as is own story, not in an established one. It is the very definition of In Name Only.

Now, not only is this just some side plot to pad for time. That itself might be understandable but no, this is supposed to be the main draw, so not so much. Now, consider that California Hollywood has a history of marginalizing Asian people (Bruce Lee had to go elsewhere to prove his movies would sell tickets, Bruce Lee). People already have an image of the original stories (Hollywood is not exactly known for original ideas) so changing something like race/ethnicity/whathaveyou will automatically get a knee jerk response. "You idiots, how could you read about Heimdall, the whitest of the gods, and then cast a black man?" But Heimdall was just supporting character, everyone else of note was still white and it was not claiming to be a straight adaptation anyway. This movie has the audacity to call itself 47 Ronin and the change is the seller of the trailers.

Okay, Kung Pow Enter The Fist literally pasted a white guy over Asians but that was a comedy, it did not have the pretensions of staying true to an older story people knew.

edited 6th Nov '13 9:44:50 PM by Cider

Sorry to say this, but in a universe where this:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/ThirteenAssassins?from=Main.ThirteenAssassins

exists, who the fuck needs a silly Caucasian man called Wind Blowing Through The Trees wearing a dress and playing with samurai swords?

So, it's more "Taking a character, making him Half-British, and adding him and supernatural elements to an already exaggerated story" that's the fault?

And about "Hollywood is not exactly known for original ideas": So? There is a lot of overlap and re-imaginings from everyone. Akira Kurosawa Throne of Blood. Sergio Leon took from Kurosawa. George Lucas stole from practically everyone when making the Star Wars.

Okay, think of it this way. You make a movie vaguely similar to Beowulf only starring an Arab, having no dragons, Grendel or scenes involving super strength and improbable swimming skills?

So it is not really like Beowulf at all? Oh, so that's why you called it Thirteenth Warrior. Yes, the primary issue here is that the story being told is not 47 Ronin. That may be where they got the idea but it has long been lost. You know, like how it is The Forbidden Kingdom instead of Journey To The West. That movie still had complaints of "unneeded white protagonist" but that was a case of Just Here for Godzilla rather than completely changing the nature of the story in a misguided effort to sell tickets.

Forbidden Kingdom did not slip into a nest, kick out the original contents and then claim to be the authentic thing so we would feed it. It may not have been above borrowing from a better, more successful species(story) but it was a different breed and proud of it. This "47 Ronin", it is a brood parasite of the most obvious variety. The only thing that is not clear is more along the lines of chicken vs egg. Some writer's script merely got a famous title put on it because it was assured it would not sell otherwise or did executives look for the biggest name they could cheaply license and tear apart, to tell the story they wanted to tell while still getting brand recognition?

edited 4th Nov '13 9:21:13 AM by Cider

So its the Starship troopers movie of Samurai movies?

No.

That was actually a good film.

This doesn't look like it will be one of those.

Ehhh YMMV on "good" I tend to hate any movie that gets that heavy handed about anything.

Eh, it looks like it'll be fun. That's not quite the same thing as it being good, of course, but I'd probably enjoy watching it.

And, just to be clear, I am not claiming that it wouldn't be frustrating to have a movie about the 47 ronin with an all white cast or that it's not a terrible adaptation. My position is that, despite the title, it doesn't appear to be an adaptation at all. I was one of the first people to point that out, in fact. It looks to have about as much in common with the original story as Frozen does with The Snow Queen. So, well, it doesn't really bother me that Keanu Reeves is in it. Chances are that's the only reason most of us are even hearing about the movie at all.

It's rough that there aren't really any Asian superstars, but I can't really blame this movie for that — though I'm definitely interested in who you guys think could play the lead. Always interested in seeing new or up and coming actors at work.

Regarding white or biracial people being persecuted by people of other races, well, if it happened it happened. You can't just level charges of racism at someone who feels that they need to mention/show that to tell their story. Of course if it's handled poorly that's its own set of problems.

The starship troopers comparison is apt. Whether you liked the movie or not does not really matter. This so called "47 Ronin" is not out yet, something might yet offset the fact it is a butcher of a classic with a wooden lead.

But the Starship troopers movie did not resemble starship troopers at all. The Philippine protagonists were gone, so called American football playing Brazilians in their places. The bugs used nothing resembling their form of technology and did not seem to be hive minded. There was not a suit of what we now called powered armor to be seen. The infamous author tract on nature and against communism, it was now subtle parody of fascism. In Name Only at its finest.

Then we see a story about Japanese people, dealing with uniquely Japanese issues but now there is a foreigner who was never there before put at the forefront bringing to central focus topics that were not even background material prior. Add in some magic and it is shaping up to be another fine example of in name only that marginalizes the once central Asian role in the original story.

I maintain Keanu Reeve should have just been playing a dutch historian/anthropologist who serves as the framing device and spends the whole movie hopped up on LSD.

edited 4th Nov '13 3:36:02 PM by Canid117

Why Dutch?

The Dutch did a lot of early trade with Japan, didn't they?

The story is from when the British were in Japan though.

Eh British Dutch it makes no difference.

edited 4th Nov '13 5:05:19 PM by Canid117

The British and the Dutch were rivals in the Imperial era. It makes a difference. The Brits would have treated a Dutchman about as badly as the Japanese would have treated a halfbreed.

The story wouldn't be about the fucking European though he would just be the framing device.

And this story is still about the 47 ronin. Kai just gets roped in due to the supernatural forced that Kira has aligned with.

You said it's the same thing. I was telling you how that's almost as bad as saying Japan and China are the same thing. They aren't the same. The Brits and the Dutch never declared outright war on each other the way the Japanese and the Chinese did, but they still fought through trade, and a Dutchman during that time wouldn't have been likely to even witness this stuff.

And that's the problem. Him being roped in by supernatural forces. It fits a pattern of marginalization that Hollywood just won't let go. If they had to go supernatural (Which isn't bad on its own) they could have chosen a full-blood Japanese man to fight against it. Setting up a half-blooded white guy just reeks of thinly veiled "we're better than you."

edited 5th Nov '13 5:07:53 AM by Journeyman

Its not about "we're better than you" its about "American audiences cant relate to a non-white person."

Which is just as offensive but its a different kind of offensive.

White americans, if we want to get specific.

American audiences CAN relate to non-whites, considering the "minorities" are gaining strength and us whites are slowly being knocked down to an equal peg, yeah, Americans can relate to non-whites.

The fact that Hollywood stubbornly refuses to explore other demographics for main characters says exactly that "we're better than all of you." Considering how much complaining there is about the subject, it can't be anything short of racist. In Independent circles, they've already broken that without problems. It's just Hollywood being stubborn and stupid.

Its not what American audiences will or will not accept its what Hollywood thinks we will accept. Hollywood's insistance on white people isn't some malicious 'Hmaw Hmaw we're are better than everyone" its some idiotic "What American audience just wants to watch Japanese people for two hours? Who will they relate to?"

Um . . . That completely discounts every fucking NONWHITE audience out there. Including the Japanese ones. Sorry, but that entire idea reeks of pro-white racism.

After all, there IS a market for regular martial arts movies that don't feature whites. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li all come to mind, and I know there are other stars out there as well. It's just not a genre that interests me very often.

edited 5th Nov '13 4:39:30 PM by Journeyman

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