'The Cricket test', nationality and heritage.

Anybody who starts a conversation with "I'm not a racist but..." is generally accepted to be about to say something stupid. So I won't.

However... (and I'm realising this could be a tricky subject)

The "cricket test" was something said by right-wing politician Norman Tebbit, who questioned the patriotism of those whose forebears are immigrants- 'Who do you support in a game of international cricket'- The fact that it is cricket indicates he was especially thinking of India/Pakistan.

India are playing the final of the Champions League Cricket in Birmingham at the moment, and Birmingham has a large immigrant population. When England take a wicket (get some one out), the ground is apparently in near silence (For the US readers - it is harder to get someone out in Cricket than it is in baseball, and its a major part of the game).

Now this crowd will have been born raised and educated in the UK. Quite probably their parents too. Yet they identify as 'Indian'.

Likewise in the US there are what I have heard called 'Hyphenated Americans' - Italian-American, or Irish-American. When President Clinton said "The US wouldn't welch on a deal" and used a soft 'ch' he ended up having to apologise to the Welsh-American community (shades of 'snigger' there I think). Now in the US these are people whose family probably emigrated over a 100 years ago.

At what point is it reasonable for someone to identify with their 'legal' country, not their 'ancestral'? This is not to say not to feel proud of their ancestry, but if you are in New York, and your colleague was cheering on Italy to beat the US, despite the fact it was his great great great grandfather who arrived at Ellis Island, is that reasonable.

edited 23rd Jun '13 10:48:52 AM by LastHussar

Ok, I'll bite. Not quite the Norman Tebbit situation but you could see me as some sort of parallel. I am born and raised in England, but thanks to a Welsh father lets just say I rather enjoyed the last international match that took place at the Millennium Stadium.

Short Answer to your question: It is sport, there are no rules about it and it doesn't matter.

You have to look at it in context. This is sport, not global politics. From my own experience, supporting Wales is primarily a bonding experience between my father and myself. We go to Cardiff when we can, I try singing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau and regardless of result we have a great time. If I have children of my own I would like to replicate this situation with them. Through this process, teams are passed down through generations despite people living in a country different to the one that is being supported.

You use the example of someone supporting their 'ancestral' team over their 'birth' team despite their ancestors being way back in the past. While that person might say "my family originally comes from (x)," chances are that is just the narrative they have been taught to justify supporting that team. The real reason isn't generation 1, but generation n-1 (where n is the generation of the person in question). If you asked me why I support Wales, I will say "my dad is from Wales..." That is the narrative. The reality is the shared experiences I have had with my father through supporting Wales; but this is harder to convey in one sentence.

edited 23rd Jun '13 4:40:33 PM by singularityshot

I'm not sure what that politician was trying to prove with that statement. If those Indians and Pakistani folks are British citizens, they're going to be voting in Britain and not India or Pakistan. So I don't see how what team they prefer in a sport has fuck all to do with where they're legally allowed to vote. (Please note that I don't know whether or not the three countries I mentioned allow dual citizenship, but folks are unlikely to vote in a country they don't live in anyway.)

I mean, that's some sort of insane troll logic there.

Did he not stop to think there's an element of free choice?

Someone at my primary school showed up to an airing of the England VS Brazil match at the 2002 World Cup in a Brazil shirt. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so.

Yeah, I've never understood why rooting for a team is such a big political deal. Then again, I've seen what happens when that sort of hypernationalism goes awry, in the case of various riots that have occurred when a sports team lost to a foreign (or out of state) team.

Heard of the Football War?

I was thinking this but that works too.

Well, in my case, my family has been in the US for just over a century. I consider myself an American first, and a Russian second.

That being said, it does get kind of obnoxious down here when you have a good share of mexicans who are both from mexico and born here who like to put mexican flags on their front porches and as stickers on cars. I do get sort of a disrespectful vibe when that happens.

And when it's world cup time, they sure aren't rooting for us.

I don't see the big deal. <shrugs> But, then... I wouldn't. I've been an expat and supported Britain/ England while in other places. And, I've also supported those other places. I still support Switzerland when it comes to stuff like skiing and wrestling: even have cowbell — will shake. When it comes to rugby, it's the Boks over the Lions. Sorry. <shrugs>

Football is always England, though. After Newcastle United.

I'm a bit messed up, I guess.

edited 24th Jun '13 4:09:40 AM by Euodiachloris

All politics is local, so are all sport allegiances.

When people support a team, they are differentiating themselves from those around them and that's specifically those around them. People would rather seek to find the points that benchmark themselves from the people they know than those on the other side of the world. In a room of ten people talking about football, I have something unique to add by identifying with a different team. It doesn't matter how similar i may or may not be with a country's citizens a thousand miles away, it matters to me how i feel here.

A welsh-american probably gets more, emotionally, from feeling connected to 50 of the people he knows and different from 100 people he knows than from feeling part of 330 million and distinct from an ancient peninsula.

If you were to flip the sense of majority and minority, you'd expect things to change- imagine a cricket league where every province of India gets its own team, one from Goa, one from Gujarat, one from Kashmir etc. and then in enters a single team representing Britain; all the Indian-British may know which province their grandparents come from but in those circumstances, I'd think they'd support the British team because in an Indian context where they currently live makes them distinct and relates them to their immediate community.

And yet there are plenty of people who don't support their "local" team.

Yes, of course. If he wants to cheer that team, because he feels proud of his ancestry or for other reasons, good for him. If he himself was the first in his family to emigrate to the US and he wants to cheer America, good for him. However much he does or doesn't want to identify as Italian is his choice, and there are arguments either way.

So let me get this straight.

If I, as an African-American, decide to display some sort of ethnic pride and heritage about Africa, such as rooting for an African sports team, then I'm a fake patriot.

No, fuck that. Fuck it with a pine cone.

Not all of us are lucky enough to have been part of the Anglo-Saxon group that went "Fuck Britain" when the country was first being founded, or part of the many different tribes that were eventually soldified into what is now the British. Some of us still have a national and/or ethnic identity primarily because we live in a society that will not allow us to forget we are fundamentally different from those who are the socio-political-economic backbone of the country.

So yeah, fuck that.

Is that the choice of society, your own group, or both I wonder? Is it all part of the desire to be different, the I Just Want to Be Special feeling that a lot of people have?

I'm one of those'Hyphenated Americans' - Italian-American- born and raised American, But by far I'm American first by far. I feel it's important to know your roots and your ancestors. I've never been to Italy, actually, and though I feel some ties I wouldn't say I really have much loyalty to the country.

what annoys me is things like this. Guy comes to america, gets the chance to compete in the olympics for the US team, and then goes and says he won "Representing two countries USA and Mexico!". You know, because Mexico gave him the opportunity.

the rest of that article is actually really good on this subject in general.

edited 24th Jun '13 5:40:23 AM by Joesolo

Does it counts when you did not even knew some of your heritage until very recently?

Because last year... I discovered that ONE OF my great-grandfather was Italian.

Edit:Forgot two words.

edited 24th Jun '13 5:47:56 AM by SaintDeltora

sure. Though generally your whatever the majority of your ancestors were. ie, I identify as Italian American, and largely am Italian, but I'm also 1/8 Irish and 1/8 German, through my maternal Grandmother. *

edited 24th Jun '13 5:55:11 AM by Joesolo

These things are often context-dependent. For example, Cricket is a huge deal in India and Pakistan, much more so than in England. It's easy to see how immigrant communities from these countries will rally around a familiar cultural symbol, especially when it comes to something like a competitive sport. Speaking from experience, really supporting a team isn't something you do on a whim or that can be changed - it's something you invest a part of yourself in and shouldn't be dependent on shallow matters like geography.

Both.

We live in a society that puts a lot of stock on heritage and connections. Sure, America (where I live) loves to promote the idea of the independent go-getter who strikes out for his own destiny and fortune, but real life tends not to work that way. Who you are and where you're from go a long way into success; for one, it determines your starting line, your finish line, your hurdles, and who your competition is.

@The Bat Pencil

And of course Soccer is Serious Business around here.

I think that anyone who gets their national (or state) identity so tied up with their local sports teams that they consider someone not rooting for the home team to be some kind of pariah or infidel is taking their Serious Business way too far.

And I agree.Some just take everything way too far. And Chess is better anyways

I dont like Soccer/Football*

I think the underlying issue here is to what extent an someone descended from immigrants should be expected to psychologically self-identify with their country of birth, as opposed to their families country of origin. That gets asked about immigrant communities here in the US too, and doesnt have anything to do with sports.

I see no reason to force a shift in cultural identification on anyone. Part of the magic of the "melting pot" is that we recognize that everyone has something unique to contribute. You can't expect every first generation immigrant to suddenly speak perfect English, adopt "baseball and apple pie", and live in a single family home with a white picket fence, a yard, a dog, and 2.5 kids.

We get so xenophobic at times that we forget our history and our principles.

edited 24th Jun '13 9:09:26 AM by Fighteer