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Complaining: Nerf
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Complaining: Nerf get usage counts

 1 Sammettik, Mon, 20th May '13 11:10:44 AM from There. Relationship Status: In denial
"Nerf" examples are loaded with Natter, Word Cruft, and Weasel Words and often seems to be an excuse to complain about characters/items/weapons or changes made to said characters/items/weapons.

I believe most of this could be fixed if we change the definition from "Something was made weaker" to "Something that was obviously overpowered was made weaker".

edited 20th May '13 11:58:20 AM by Sammettik

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you.
 2 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th May '13 11:11:44 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
While I agree, I don't think that adding something as vague as "obviously overpowered" is going to help.

 3 StarSword, Mon, 20th May '13 11:44:58 AM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
Plan A: Start a cleanup thread in Short Term Projects (could also take care of example sorting while they're at it). Plan B and nuclear option: Example Sectionectomy.

I prefer Plan A.

edited 20th May '13 11:46:09 AM by StarSword

Since this is a actually objective trope(something that was a Game Breaker or similar gets weakened so it's not as useful, or even no longer useful at all) I prefer just clean-up too. ,
"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
 5 Sammettik, Mon, 20th May '13 11:54:49 AM from There. Relationship Status: In denial
Nuts, I should've remembered that Game Breaker is subjective...

Now that I think about it, my first idea was rather redundant when we already have Obvious Rule Patch.

Heck, the entire Nerf trope seems kind of redundant compared to Obvious Rule Patch.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you.
 6 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th May '13 11:58:09 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
I am not seeing that redundancy.

Obvious Rule Patch is much more broad and can cover much more than this.

Also, Game Breaker isn't subjective. It literally means "a mechanic, attack, ability or item that breaks the gameplay in the players favor."
"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
 8 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th May '13 12:07:07 PM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Game Breaker has a big YMMV banner.

 9 Larkmarn, Mon, 20th May '13 12:07:13 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
[up][up]From the GB page: Game Breakers are often controversial and subjective. Rarely do people actually agree on what is and is not game-breaking. Heated debates (or worse) over Game Breakers spread like wildfire on the Internet, or even around the house. It's obvious that the extremes of the Munchkin or the Scrub are wrong. However, there are techniques whose power is hard or even impossible to call.

edited 20th May '13 12:07:22 PM by Larkmarn

 10 Sammettik, Mon, 20th May '13 12:10:40 PM from There. Relationship Status: In denial
My bad, I'm still new at this.

I was originally planning to do a cleanup on the article without without bothering with the repair shop, But I wanted to see what everyone else thought first before I got into any edit wars. Better safe than sorry.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you.
 11 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th May '13 12:12:35 PM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Huh. Well, buddy, nobody will raise a fuss if you go and remove natter and complaining, I can reassure you.

 12 Larkmarn, Mon, 20th May '13 12:47:26 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Yeah, the definition of Nerf is pretty simple and concrete: Something is weakened in between installments. The subjectivity of Gamebreaker really has no bearing on this trope, as "item is weaker" is pretty objective.

Feel free to cut out natter and wordcruft.

I dunno, Nerfing seems to be pretty controversial in gaming circles I've seen. If something is weakened in one area, but strengthened in another, is the judgment of whether the final result is better, worse, or the same overall compared to the previous version really objective?

 14 Sammettik, Mon, 20th May '13 12:58:42 PM from There. Relationship Status: In denial
Sure, thanks. I'll go do that right now.

P.S. Since this is my first "repair shop", might I ask how to close this topic?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you.
 15 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th May '13 12:59:20 PM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
By clicking the yellow sign at the top of any post and asking for a thread closure.

 16 Native Jovian, Mon, 20th May '13 3:24:37 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
It might be worth tweaking the description to make it clear that a nerf is simply "something being made weaker". It's still a nerf even if the thing being weakened wasn't a Game Breaker before its nerf.
The only reason Game Breaker is YMMV is because not every player is capable of utilizing its game breaking effect. Nerf, on the other hand, is compared only to itself and if certain effects are less powerful that is an objective fact.

That said, a clean-up is probably in order because the reaction to a nerf is often complaining.

 18 shoboni, Mon, 20th May '13 5:45:30 PM from Iowa, USA
How is Game Breaker subjective? Maybe the trope is more broad than what I'm thinking.
"It's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil, we have rage and compassion, we have love and hate...murder and forgiveness."
 19 Another Duck, Mon, 20th May '13 5:49:35 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
The difference between a strong weapon and a game breaking weapon is a matter of much debate. Replace "weapon" with whatever game mechanic or tactic you want.
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Dragon Writer
^^ It's very difficult to determine at what point something crosses the line from "powerful" to "game-breaking". That is the only reason.

For example, in 3D Dot Game Heroes you can upgrade your swords until they extend all the way across the screen, slice through obstructions, allowing you to One-Hit Kill entire rooms of enemies in a single Spin Attack. Is that powerful? Yes. Is it game-breaking? Well ... your sword won't protect you from ranged attacks (especially in boss battles), enemies can still block it, and sword upgrades are only in effect as long as you're at full HP. So if you take a hit, the battle suddenly becomes much harder.

edited 20th May '13 6:21:56 PM by Stratadrake

There are a lot of examples that demonstrate why the concept can be objective, but it has a massive grey area that makes curating it a headache. So for the sanity of everyone involved it is listed as YMMV.

The two reasons I can think of is the threshold of what makes something unbalanced versus just a very useful weapon/power is undefined and that player skill usually dictates how effective you can utilize a weapon/power.

 22 Another Duck, Tue, 21st May '13 2:20:23 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
Anyway, Nerf isn't about any limit at all, but just about a downgrade. Nothing more than that. It's objective.
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 23 Septimus Heap, Sat, 25th May '13 5:11:56 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Did a thorough cleanup. It the article well-off now?

 24 Willbyr, Sat, 25th May '13 7:18:27 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Anime-ted
It seems pretty good just from the skim-through I did, but folderizing the games by type would help with organization.
 25 Another Duck, Sat, 25th May '13 7:26:28 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
+1 for the cleanup.

I'm not sure I see a case for redefinition here. The degree of the nerf isn't important to the trope.

edited 28th May '13 7:23:33 AM by AnotherDuck

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Total posts: 37
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