Muppets Most Wanted

I kind of see the chipmunk thing as Disney, for once, having too much respect for the audience's intelligence.

Finally saw it yesterday. It's not terrible, but it feels empty (and long!) compared to the 2011 installment. 6.5/10

Peace is the only battle worth waging.

Shame this didn't do better. Really enjoyed it.

Finally saw the film too. I enjoyed it overall, the main human leads were entertaining and I like that unlike the previous film, a few tertiary characters got to shine through (Rizzo got a line!). But I have to say that the film felt less of a tour de farce by the Muppets and more of a flat, gags by the minute film.

Instead of comparing it to its most recent predecessor, I'd like to compare this film to its more in tone Spiritual Successor, The Great Muppet Caper. When that film came out, no one was expecting it to be a sequel to The Muppet Movie, and it wasn't trying to be. It was a pastiche film and what made it great was that it took the Muppet characters as less nod-to-the-camera actors and more realized inhabitants. They still broke the fourth wall, but much like Christmas Carol or Treasure Island, the characters in the GMC were less Kermit, Fozzie and Gonzo directly lifted from the Muppet show and more just similar personality metonyms. Thus the film had more freedom in what it could parody and accomplish. It didn't need to be restricted to being a direct sequel or carrying a larger story, it was just an inventive way to tell an entertaining standalone.

Muppets Most Wanted, in my opinion, struggles to find balance in this regard. It both wants to be a parody and farce film like Muppet Caper but falls flat because it also tries to be a continuing sequel for 2011's The Muppets. Thus, you get scenes that seem completely out of place like the gang taking the entire film to realize Kermit has been replaced, the Fridge Logic of the Muppets having fans that are really just actors yet being supposedly hot as a franchise, and Walter not even mentioning his brother Gary. Furthermore, I feel like as a whole, because the film is intentionally trying to be a sequel rather than a stand alone is that it falls into what I call the "Cars 2 Genre Premise". In which a film or movie, which ended fine by wrapping up all loose ends, is suddenly demanded a sequel to and the creators, uninventive enough to create a long flowing narrative between the two, simply switch the film genre and call it a day. L Thus, you get film's like the Cars Cars in A Spy Film, Monster Inc in a University Story, Alvin and the Chipmunks in Who the hell cares what they're doing is consistent because the directors obviously don't.

But, the Muppets have always been less about consistency and more about jokes, which sadly also falls flat too. Most of the guest stars, while also blink and you'll miss it like other productions, are fine except the film seems almost cloying pandering to a Disney Channel audience than anything else.

That said, I don't think this is a bad film and I certainly enjoyed it more on a comedic level than the Muppets. But a considerable portion of the film just screams of "Executive Meddling" which makes the entire thing just feel bland and forced rather than creatively spontaneous. Which is heinous, considering how the Muppets are meant to be low budget performers In-Universe.

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I finally saw the film.

Yea it is not as good as The Muppets. So when I rewatched that part of the opening song where they say "the sequel's never quite as good", I had to remember that line with a hint of cringing, since they obviously thought they could make a joke on it right out of the park "so it would be excusable". But other than that, the film was actually funnier than the last one! I feel like it did drag in several scenes, which is odd considering so many of the other Muppets get their own moments, but they're all incredibly short, and the film focuses a heafty amount of Kermit, and Constantine instead... who just looks like another Kermit. Badguy's character was amusing and classic Gervais, but he kind of just pops into the movie without any kind of establishment for who he is as a character, and it's hard to relate to him. I suppose it's because he and Constantine are the bad guys we're supposed to love to hate. Some of the songs may have slowed down the pacing too- only one of the songs, where Ty Burrell's character and Sam interrogated the Muppets, made any attempt to push the story along while it happened, and that's kind of a point lost. The "spy/world tour/doppleganger" story has been done to death, and that may have also hindered the movie from being as good as the last one.

I'm not sure, having stories that are done to death never stopped the Muppets in the past. Treasure Island and A Christmas Carol are about as stock literature plots as you can get, and a jewel heist is nothing new. He'll even the Muppets 2011 ripped off a earlier television film!

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Yeah this sequel definitely lacked what actually made The Muppets so successful. It's been 11 years since they did anything in theaters, the last one flopped massively, and since then they only catered more toward children, which is what Jim Henson never wanted. Also, you got the sense that the world was out to get them at every turn, even though everything was still played for laughs. It had a lot of heart, which is something MOST of the Muppet films lacked, actually.

Here, they do try to make you feel bad for Kermit while he's in the gulac, but it's not done very well. They go on a world tour! You would think the dangers of the world would escalate toward them much more! But instead, we're treated with funny accents, convenient plots points that arrive because the script told them to, and jokes about how amusing countries are because they're different. The Spanish version of The Muppet Show was amusing but I kinda felt uncomfortable seeing that- ... weren't they dubbed for Spanish audiences decades before, and now we're making a joke out of it?? This is a very American movie, and you can see why. It may also shed some light on how this film didn't gross very much.

edited 7th Apr '14 7:25:49 AM by kyun

The thing is, though, that those films didn't shy away from the fact that they were adaptations (or, in the case of The Great Muppet Caper, parodied common cliches). MMW does neither.

Peace is the only battle worth waging.

@Kyun According to a spanish version I saw, they keep the lyrics exactly the same as the english version (ie it's the same spanish). Which is kind of strange when you think about it. Also, I'm confused what you mean by "the last one was a flop", considering TM grossed over $165. Additionally, if creator Frank Oz is meant to be taken as Word of God, the new revival Muppets are certainly way too "cute" than they should be.

I'd actually argue that MMW at least tries to do that, but is less concerned with being a farce that simply has muppet characters to a Muppet film that's trying to be a farce. Ipso ergo, while TGMC could, hypothetically, exist as a standard crime film even with the muppets removed from it, Muppets Most Wanted plays way too much on the tropes, thus making it feel forced.

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I was re-fer-ring to Muppets from Space, the movie to precede The Muppets 11 years before that.

Ah, see I was confused, since you also mentioned the world was out to get them at every turn, which could arguably refer to all three "recent" muppet films.

edited 8th Apr '14 1:59:02 PM by Mattonymy

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Anyone got any ideas for a third movie (or 9th, depending on what you count)?

edited 10th Apr '14 8:14:00 AM by kyun

Give Gonzo plot relevance. You had two perfect Muppet movies where Gonzo is there but doesn't add anything to the plot, or to any scene, which is a great break from the 3 movies prior to these where Gonzo either DROVE the plot, narrated, or had the most screentime. A third film would be the perfect opportunity to make him a fleshed out quirky character again with real problems, instead of only focusing on how he loves to do stunts and his relationship with Camila. Plus, he's played by Dave Goelz, the one single remaining Muppeteer who is still playing the character he originated from its creation in the originai 1960's show** - give him some time in the spotlight before he isn't physically able to! I really hope Dave is coaching some younger puppeteer to take over his characters right now because he was SO GOOD in those 3 movies. ... or it may just be my own bias- Gonzo is and also has been my favorite Muppet growing up.

Other things i wanna see happen:

• Feature a child actor as a child character interacting with the Muppets. I feel that it would add some relatability to the young audiences.

• Have the Muppets sing a reprise of Gonzo's "I'm Going To Go Back There Someday". It was cut from Muppets from Space.

• As a parallel to the third film The Muppets Take Manhattan, have the Muppets travel to another popular international city and have a story there!
  • Turns out Steve Whitmire reprises his role as Rizzo the Rat in this film, who he created during The Muppet Show, so Dave Goelz is NOT the last remaining Muppeteer in the movie to do that. My bad.

edited 10th Apr '14 4:15:48 PM by Shota

With regards to Gonzo, I'm definitely getting the impression that it's getting harder and harder for Goelz. If we do want to start showcasing him more, then giving Bunsen and Beauregard more relevance as this film did is a good way to go about it.

God knows that worked out so well last time.

I dunno. These last two films have made a practice of appealing to our nostalgia with deminishing results, with "Rainbow Connection" and "Together Again" being the weakest parts of both films. I'm not denying "I'm Going To Go Back There Someday" is a great song, but a reprise doesn't seem like a good idea.

edited 10th Apr '14 4:36:07 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

Well then, maybe it would be best if he handed the weirdo-looking torch down to a newbie if he can't do as much as he used to with the character, as much as I love what the guy's done.

.... I'm not sure what you're getting at. The kid was pretty good, and it was ONE instance of a child starring with the Muppets. Can't simply ditch a whole idea with a first try.

... I— really??? You thought the parts where they reprised their older songs were the weakest parts of—- go read that part in the Tearjerker page from the film The Muppets and see all the people moved to tears from the "Rainbow Connection" number! And "Mahna Mahna" and the show's theme song being brought back were extreme favorite moments of mine!

edited 10th Apr '14 4:40:20 PM by Shota

That's up to him. No one's gonna force him out of the role, that's for sure.

Also the kid was terrible and we can absolutely ditch the idea because it's terrible.

edited 10th Apr '14 4:40:05 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

What makes me think you're not the kind of person who is swayed in any way in a debate?

Okay, fine, I'm being deliberately hyperbolic. Let me explain my thought process here.

Now, Kevin Bishop was a perfectly fine actor as a child. There's nothing wrong with him personally. But there is a problem with the idea that having him in the movie automatically makes children like it more. And the problem is that—and this is admittedly ancedotal evidence—not a single thing I recall liking about the movie had anything to do with Kevin Bishop. Everything just kinda happened around him.

And that's an absurdly easy trap when it comes to integrating children into their own entertainment, especially when the other option is giving the kid a lot to do and risking either a terrible child actor or a lot of behind-the-scenes issues. And it only gets worse the younger you try to skew, because any audience old enough to want to be represented is also old enough to notice when they're being pandered to.

To say nothing of the fact that The Muppet Show branch of the franchise 1. is one of the last bastions of legitimate all-ages entertainment and 2. has only once ever resorted to that sort of thing and largely been the better for it.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

I can name plenty child actors through the years who are incredible and don't always act like children. Dakota Fanning, Abigail Breslin, Paulie Litt, Hailee Steinfeld, I recall Shia Le Boauf as being very good when he started in TV. Plus, we have NO IDEA what kind of story or framework they'll write if another film is ever made. Just because one instance was bad doesn't mean that's all it ever will be.

Make "The Cheapest Muppet Movie Ever Made", for once.

There.

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Again, it's not about how good the child actors are. I'm just resistant to the idea that they'd enhance what the Muppets as a franchise are good at in any meaningful way.

I dunno. I feel like it's been talked up so much now that any attempt to produce it would inevitably be disappointing.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

Is this doing okay in DVD sales?

I know I'm not helping by watching it via Redbox, but it was still a good enough film that I want it to succeed.

Actually, you are. Redbox and other similar companies pay a certain amount to the studio per rental.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

I like Muppet Treasure Island. It had Tim Curry and Billy Connolly in it.

I can't disagree there, but that's irrelevant (this thread is about the 2014 film).

Peace is the only battle worth waging.